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kseid2
i got FFX-2's perfect ending when it first came out; however i payed no attention to the new storyline of the game, rather sought to just see how the game dealt with the "tidus" issue. I recently beat FFX over again b/c i have break in college and realized how good of a game it is, but i forgot about the ffx-2 story and need answers to certain questions. Regarding the issue of whether or not Tidus survives at the end of FFX, it seems as if the game hints that he is resurrected by having the pyreflies reassemble in the water, as well as Tidus awakening in a "fetal position" and then smiling and swimming up. I read that the makers of the game scheduled a sequel shortly after they released FFX, so i kinda believe that they intended to bring him back from teh start, rather than just to appease those who were "saddened" by the ending of FFX. But i got a few questions about the ending of FFX-2, if someone can help me out.

1) How does Tidus exactly come back in FFX-2's perfect ending? Do the fayth just decide to continue dreaming him up because they felt they owed it to Yuna (sorry i forgot why they owed her but i remember she did something for them)? Were the fayth sent to the farplane at the end of FFX or did they just stop dreaming? Can we then assume that the fayth can bring their "Dream people" that were granted mortality from sin into existence again and if so, can they do the same for jecht if they wanted to?

2) What is the significance of Yuna pushing Tidus into the water in Zanarkand and then saying "you didn't disapear"? Was the water suppose to clarify whether Tidus' existence was temporary or permanent? Are we to assume that Tidus is only in existence due to Yuna's love and cherishing of him?

Thanks to whoever can help me out. I know its alot smile.gif
Xerno
As for the first question, I'm not too sure either. It's something I haven't bothered with much myself.

But as for the second question, it was more of a joke. Tidus told Yuna to cherish him, so that they would stay together. But when she asks him if that's what the Fayth said, he says it's just something he came up with himself 'cause he likes it. So she jokingly pushes him in the water, which as he says isn't quite cherishing, so she just replies "You didn't disappear". It wasn't really meant seriously, they were just kidding around a little.
kseid2
the first question is a doozy but it seems as if the makers of the game should address it because after all they should have a justifiable reason why and how Tidus comes back.
the second question, u might b right but it seemed as if it wasn't a joke b/c she didn't say "you didn't disapear" humorously and then after she says that, it seems as if Tidus raises his arms and examines how he is still existing.

this seems like a plot-hole unless someone can prove me wrong

thanks
Final Fantasist
Well, I ca answer both of tem, if you have the time to read ^^:

I'll start with the number 2 question.

As xerno said:
QUOTE
Tidus told Yuna to cherish him, so that they would stay together. But when she asks him if that's what the Fayth said, he says it's just something he came up with himself 'cause he likes it. So she jokingly pushes him in the water, which as he says isn't quite cherishing, so she just replies "You didn't disappear". It wasn't really meant seriously, they were just kidding around a little.

I don't think she was joking, whe Tidus says it's something that came to himself after Yuna asks if it was the fayth tha said that, the cherishing part, if they cherish eachother Tidus won't dissaper. Now when Yuna pushes Tidus into the water and Tidus says that's no cherishing, and she sas you didn't dissaper. That's just a way of saying that theyr story will go on and tha Tidus won't dissaper, no mather what happens. Something along those lines ^^

Now for the harder question:
QUOTE
How does Tidus exactly come back in FFX-2's perfect ending? Do the fayth just decide to continue dreaming him up because they felt they owed it to Yuna (sorry i forgot why they owed her but i remember she did something for them)?

Something like that, yes, because they own Yuna for savingthem yet again from Vegangun and Shuyin. They own Yuna so much they decided to bring what she cherised the most, Tidus.
QUOTE
Were the fayth sent to the farplane at the end of FFX or did they just stop dreaming? Can we then assume that the fayth can bring their "Dream people" that were granted mortality from sin into existence again and if so, can they do the same for jecht if they wanted to?
We can say that the fayth, after we beat Sin and Yu Yevon they finally are able to rest and went on to the Farplane. Now for the fayth if they ca bring or not "dream people". Well, if you think like it, there is one character that was a "dream person" and we fight in FF X-2, Shuyin. We can cal him an Unsent, as much as Seymour, after you beat him the first time, and Auron were.
So, we can assume that idus came back asan Unsent, but there's another thory. The fayth were used by Yu Yevon to summon Aeons, much like Jecht was used as a fayth to Braska to summon the Final Aeon. We can assume that the fayths, seeing that they had that much power, could just summon Tidus the same way, but maybe the used all their power so that Tidus, instead of an Aeon would become a real person.

Just theories thohg, hope it isn't too confusing ^^"
kseid2
Final fantasist, i agree more with you upon the perfect ending of X-2 but i think the makers of the game should have clarified it more, considering they left so much of the storyline up for speculation (not necessarily a bad thing)

alright maybe i should just beat X-2 over again, but i spent so long getting 100% that i grew to hate the game (especially the part with trema)

The fayth stopped dreaming because Yu yevon was defeated. I don't see (or perhaps i missed) why they stopped dreaming if yu yevon dies. What exactly are aeons anyway other than summons with the spirits of the fayth? Isn't the role of the fayth in the aeons (that the fayth are the spirits of the aeons) and that the role of the fayth in the creation of Tidus different? (the fayth just dreamth Tidus, most likely as a substituion for shuyin who really did "exist")

I think you're right that Tidus came back as an "unsent" rather than a real person. At the end of FFX, Tidus emerges from a fetal position surrounded by pyreflies (much like unsents). I remember Auron saying that when Sin comes into contact with people from the dream zanarkand, then they become "more than just dreams" (meaning human i suppose). If so, then doesn't Sin have the ability to grant mortality? Don't the fayth just dream these people up (such as tidus and jecht) and then Yu yevon (sin) makes them into real people in present day spira? (kind of like fayth = idea yu yevon = production

Perhaps Tidus returned with both the help of the fayth in the dreaming of him again, Yuna's love for him, and Tidus' strong feeling and obligation to Yuna (in FFX they said that someone can exist as an unsent if a strong emotion or obligation binds them to spira).

Your theories are good but i still can't shake certain parts of this plot.

Thanks to Final Fantasist and anyone who can help me out smile.gif
Athrun
The Fayth owed Yuna for saving them from Shuyin. If you remember, they were possessed by his spirit and could not control their Aeons any more. (Hence why they were Dark Aeons)
But how this ties in with Yuna feeling bad for "killing" the Aeons back in FFX, I have no idea.

But for the second question, Yuna pushed Tidus because he told her that she needs to cherish him in order for them to stay together. So Yuna pushed him and showed him that they could stay together, even if she doesn't cheerish him. It was a joke, but at the same time it was a serious moment.

And Tidus emerging from from a fetal position in the water at the end of FFX is probably a scene from FFX-2. Because that's exactly how Tidus reappears in the FFX-2 ending. And they even show you a scene from FFX-2 back in FFX, (or a few weeks before the events of the game) on the bonus DVD called Another Side, Another Story. You see Lulu preagnant, and Yuna whistling out to the sea, two years after FFX ended.

QUOTE (kseid2 @ Jun 1 2006, 03:35 PM) *
The fayth stopped dreaming because Yu yevon was defeated. I don't see (or perhaps i missed) why they stopped dreaming if yu yevon dies.

Yu Yevon was summoning some/most/or all things from the dream as well, so they were forced to continue dreaming for eternity because of Yu Yevon. When he was defeated, they could stop dreaming.

But at the end of FFX-2 it seems they chose to summon the dream of Tidus back to Yuna to repay her for saving them. I don't think Tidus is an unsent in FFX-2, because you can't come back from the Farplane as an unsent. Once you go, you're gone. Unsent people simply refuse to leave Spira, and never become sent.
kseid2
hmmm good point athrun. I suppose since Tidus didn't die like Auron that he shouldn't be considered an unsent, rather the only reason he "died" (maybe disapear is better) is because the fayth stopped dreaming. So i suppose that the fayth dreaming would only make him "reappear" again. Sin granted him "mortality" earlier by orginally introducing both him and jecht to spira.

i agree with you about the second question too. But u gotta feel like after 100% they shoulda gave us more. tongue.gif

"Yu Yevon was summoning some/most/or all things from the dream as well, so they were forced to continue dreaming for eternity because of Yu Yevon. When he was defeated, they could stop dreaming."

i still don't quite understand how Yu yevon made the fayth dream. Can u clairfy that more please?

thanks Athrun and everyone who can help smile.gif
Final Fantasist
QUOTE
i still don't quite understand how Yu yevon made the fayth dream. Can u clairfy that more please?

Well, dreameing is just a metapjore that they used. If you remember, Yu Yevon summons Sin in order to finis the Machina War between Bevelle and Zanarkand once and for all. We could say that Sin's the Final Aeon of Yu Yevon. Now, the people who wanted to sacrifice themselves where turned into fayths to help the summoners defeat Sin. Bothe those people that have sacrificed and the summoners perished. YU Yevon then toke the power of the fayths as to their powerless to him, because they're power in being controlled by Yu Yevon.

They are the ones that are "dreaming" but it's Yu Yvon that controls them into dreaming Zanarkand. As to why Yevon wanted to do that,, I don't remember, I think someone has alrady explained that ihn other topic a few months back.
Red Winged Seraph
I'll try to answer only the first question.

The fayth told Tidus that he and his father are more than just dreams (don't remember when exactly). He might have mentioned that it had something to do with them touching Sin, I don't really remember. But the fayth pretty much hints at some point that Tidus might become more than just a dream.


Here, I found this in the game script:

Fayth: Would you and your father... Would you let us rest? Both you and your
father have been touched by Sin. Sin, the one around whom all Spira - the
spiral - revolves.

Tidus: What are you saying?

Fayth: You two are more than just dreams now.

Tidus can hear Yuna's voice.

Yuna: Wake up! Wake up, please!

Fayth: Just a little more, and maybe...

Looks pretty obvious to me. He's hinting that Tidus might still live after the fayth stops dreaming.
kseid2
hmm very interesting red winged seraph, can u post the link to that game script?

i agree and this is just a theory but:

Maybe with enough of love (primarily Yuna) and desire (Tidus' wish to fufill his promise to Yuna that he will be with her "always" (told her in macalania woods after their emotional scene) as well as to "always be there when she whistles" help contribute to the fayth making him real again by dreaming him up. Moreover, perhaps part of the point of final fantasy X-2 (just one of the many) was Yuna's discovery of just how significant his influence was on her as well as how important he is to her (as shown by her abandoning her "duties" to go on a journey solely in search of answers based upon an obscure message from a sphere).
Of course the fayth continuing to dream probably was more than necessary but i think that helped and maybe that is what the fayth meant.

just a theory though happy.gif

wut u guys think?
Zee
I always thought that Tidus jumped because of what Auron said. That the dead desrve to rest. If he didnt go then they wouldn't be able to rest in peace. Also I think he would have dissapeared anyway even if he didnt jump.
Red Winged Seraph
The whole point of defeating Yu Yevon was to release the fayth from their dreaming (well that and of course, eliminating Sin). So I can believe that Tidus became so connected with Spira that he became a real person, but I won't believe for a second that after all that mess with Yu Yevon, some fayth still couldn't rest.
Final Fantasist
QUOTE
So I can believe that Tidus became so connected with Spira that he became a real person, but I won't believe for a second that after all that mess with Yu Yevon, some fayth still couldn't rest.

No, all of the were able to rest. What you see in FF X-2 that's Shuyin posessing the fayths and using their Aeons.

All of the fayths were able to rest. ANd as to why Tidus jumped fo the ship, he knew his existance was going to end in a few seconds.

What he did was just his was of saying "I'm free", altough you can see in his face that he was crying and sad that he wouldn't be able to see Yuna ever again, he just couldn't bare it so he just jumped, much like a person jumps to his/her death. He didn't jump to his death because he was alredy dying, to sort of speak. He just looked one time to Yuna before he dissapered and jumped off, you see when he jumps we see Braska and his wife, Auron and finally Jecht when they hi-five each other. When he jumps, to the eyes of the other people while he was falling, i assume he turned into pyrefiles much like when you defeat Yu Yevon and you see a scene where the Aeons and Sin dissaper and turn into pyreflies.
Athrun
QUOTE (Red Winged Seraph @ Jun 3 2006, 02:39 AM) *
Looks pretty obvious to me. He's hinting that Tidus might still live after the fayth stops dreaming.

I don't think so, because both Jecht and Tidus were gone for over 3 years.
By "More than a dream" I think he simply meant that they are no longer simply interacting with the dream world, but with the real (or outside) world.

When you go to sleep at night and have a dream, it doesn't directly affect your real life does it? If it did, then it would be "more than just a dream."

Sin pulled Tidus out of the Dream Zanarkand, and possibly the same thing happened to Jecht before.

Also, Dream Zanarkand isn't a dream per say. It actually existed somewhere in Spira all along. Exactly where, they didn't specify.

QUOTE (kseid2)
i still don't quite understand how Yu yevon made the fayth dream. Can u clairfy that more please?

Yeah they never explained that in the game. But rather afterwards in the Ultimania Guide instead.
Here's a link to a translation of the guide.

http://www.geocities.com/alastair412/ffx/f...ryline.html#4.3

QUOTE
Yevon, Yu Yevon and the Yevon Church

At the time of the Millenium War, Yevon was the leader of Zanarkand, and supposedly the most powerful summoner alive. On the day of the Bevellian assault, he gathers the survivors and leads them to Mt. Gagazet, where they are all made into fayth.


When this is accomplished, Yevon begins summoning an idealized memory of Zanarkand, "the City which never sleeps".

In order to protect both himself and Dream Zanarkand, he gathers pyreflies around him with gravity spells and forms the first Sin - which then rampages through the Bevellian armies who were closing in on Mt. Gagazet and finishes ruining the original Zanarkand.

Prior to this, Yevon's daughter, Yunalesca, had fled with her husband Zaon. Over the next couple of years, as Sin rampages through Spira, Yunalesca approaches the Bevellian leadership and begins to negotiate a peculiar deal: Bevelle will pay tribute to the memory of Yevon. It is not entirely clear whether the cult and Yevon Church is established immediately or whether it evolves gradually over a century or more. It is also unclear whether that had all been planned by Yevon himself or whether Yunalesca was acting on the opportunity.

Anyway, to those in the know, Yevon himself becomes known as "Yevon Ju", the Curse of Yevon (Yu Yevon in English). In exchange, Yunalesca goes to the ruins of Zanarkand, turns her husband into the first fayth for the Final Summoning, and defeats Sin, by melting its outer shell.

It is possible to imagine (but not directly supported by the game) that Yunalesca may have been able to communicate with Yevon before summoning the final aeon, and strike a deal with him, one which would include an immunity of Bevelle from Sin's offensive programming.

Regardless of whether such an exchange actually took place or not, Yevon takes over the aeon Zaon as a core to form Sin anew. The shock from this takeover kills Yunalesca. Bound by the deals she struck, she remains unsent in Zanarkand, capable, over time, to extend her reach considerably to manipulate fiends several miles from her location.

Regardless of how much initial planning was done between Yunalesca and Bevelle before she left, it stands to reason to assume that over the years, some guardians were able to return to the Church with the account of how the whole Final Summoning worked. I have personally no doubt that those survivors were quickly executed to avoid spreading any rumors of an endless cycle. In any case, Seymour at least would be able to tell the tale once he became a maester.

Over the centuries, the Yevon Church extended its influence over much of Spira, taking existing traditions and molding them into the Yevon canon. With the development of the pilgrimages, their hold on the various temples holding the fayths effectively lets them "hold the key to Spira's salvation", in the eyes of a terrified populace. This is of course also one reason, beyond any deal struck with Yunalesca, why Bevelle themselves prohibit usage of Machina and ostracize the Al Bhed: If people started to believe Sin could be defeated by means outside of the Church's control, Bevelle would loose a lot of influence.
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