Well, I was engaged in a debate on another forum with a person on how th Four Testaments would fair in Xenogears. This is a sub-topic however. Here I would like to ask you what would you rank as the Top Tier of Xenogears and Xenosaga in terms of power?

1. U-DO and the Wave Existence- Self-evident. BOth are beings from a higher dimension who simply are just too strong compared to anyone in either of their respective worlds.

2. The Contact- Born with the power of god, the Contact has infinite potential for Ether control. This was best seen in Id, who wielded his tremendous might with reckless abandon. However, The Contact's best analogy is Anakin Skywalker. Anakin was born of The Force which would be the Star Wars' equivalent to the Wave Existence. This translates into Anakin having infinite potential as well. However, given circumstance, Anakin never came to realize his full power and neither did many of The Contacts. Abel, Kim and Lacan shoed no vast areas of power until Lacan made partial contact with the WE.

3. The Testaments- This was the crux of my argument, basically. I say the Testaments' collective power could easily stop someone like Id given a variety of reasons; primarily Id's destructive and relatively simplistic nature, the superiority of the E.S.es to Weltall-Id in mobility the fact they can vaporize a human with ease and basically exist in two simultaneous dimensions like the Gnosis. I believe all Four Testaments' collective power rivals Id's and any of the Contact's.

That's the main topic. I think we can all agree that U-DO and the Wave Existence are at the very top of the Most Powerful list but I can see everything beneath them varying for different people.

I think so too. However there was also something on my mind about the WE and U-DO. Seems to me like they are sort of like a belief filled ethereal force that needs to contact with someone in order to cause an effect, or to be part of something like the WE with Zohar. So in this sense, we could consider that their power is mostly dependent on an outside force for it to fully work, otherwise they are just kinda there doing nothing. Like for instance, if both could destroy the universe, the couldnt do it alone, they would need some sort of vessel or agent.

On the whole Testament issue, I havent played Episode 3 so I dont know about thsi Voyager or the white Testament, but from their previous appearances, I compare them to Grahf rather than ID. On some other level i could compare them to the villains who receive power from Grahf like the dude that piloted the Dora gear (was it Vanderkaum or something?), in a way that Grahf is kinda like the testament´s boss. However, it seems that each Testament have the power, or even more, than Grahf did.

Which leads me to a theory i had a long time ago, when Ep 2 was released which since had been forgotten and now its brought back. The fact that Wilhelm and chaos could be the wave existance and the Testaments have come in contact with it and thus becamse testaments, like Grahf in Xenogears. But I dont know yet, i need to play Ep 3 before trying to tackel such subjects.

The Testaments are the most powerful things in the universe. Really, they are. It's a wonder why they even use Ein Sofs.

Look at their powers.

1. They can be anywhere.
2. They can be in two places at once.
3. They are practically invincible.
4. They can be invisible.
5. They can cause space time anamolies and all that. (which is basically a summary of all of the above)

Since they don't have a physical body they can have an enormous power of persuasion over people by simply transfering their voice into a person's mind without an image of their body.

Remember how Testaments work?

They are only seen by whom they want to be seen. They send their physical appearence out towards those they want to see them, and they'll look like they're there, but they really won't be. Which is why Virgil could turn into Ein Rugel and Doppelwogel in the first place.

Bah, the Testaments were cool, and had all that power, but they were not truly powerful. Each and every one of them was 'defeated' by they're very human desires in the end. It proved that all you really had to do was talk a good game, get into their heads and poof, they go down like anyone else. And as Kevin proved by what he did, there are ways to beat them if you have the understanding of what they are. Knowledge is true power.

But a cold, emotionless, truly detached Testament? O____O Now THAT is scary.

Voyager was close to that, his only "flaw" was his lust for power

*XSIII spoilers included*

I'd say Wilhelm was even closer to that. I'm not even sure how he eventually lost. If he already knew about everything (including Kevin's betrayal), it makes me wonder how he could not have known about Mary's and Kevin's further actions. Did his Compass of Order have the flu or something?

It was getting annoying how he'd be like "Do whatever you like, I know what you'll try anyway". For a moment I didn't think they'd really be able to stop him. Good thing they did, though. He was beginning to get on my nerves. <<''

Well I think Voyager was more soft spoken for most of the story, rather than detached. It was obvious he took joy in what he was doing, being "immortal" and above "death". All of that, plus the lust for power that was ultimately his undoing was just as human a weakness as the more Emo flaws.

As far as Willy goes, well, he wasn't perfect, that's really all to it. He knew a lot, but he didn't know everything. No telling which cycle our game takes place in, but like it said, the Human will just evolved past Willy's control that last time. Obviously somthing he wanted, so I think he really won in the end.

I wouldn't say that...SPOILERS!




It took the love of Virgil's life to swing him. It took making a full connection and link with Jr. to take Albedo. It took knowing a power above that of a Testament to swing Voyager. It required precise knowledge and influence on the person.




----


And Voyager and the other Testaments could rip most people to shreds. E.S. Dan and the others have the ability to telepport along with their powers which is something Weltall-Id can not do. As I said, in raw power Id overwhelms them but they are by no means squashed if paired up with him. If Id was smarter, more controlled, I'd give him a better shot against extremely cunning people like Voyager.

Well yeah XD that's what I mean. No matter what it took, it was still they're human desires that defeated them. As far as ID goes, well, I don't really think he could beat them unless he knew what the were. They had no physical forms, they didn't even truly exist in our world. They existed in imaginary space, and just had the ability to project their power and essence into our own. When the others were fighting the Testaments, they were fighting power. It just registered in their minds that they were facing off against physical forms. It's why they never took any real damage, and when it seemed they were, it was only because someone used enough energy to weaken their link to the 'real' world momentarily. Hmmm...now that I think about it...yeah..ID would wipe the floor with them without having to know what they were. He could wield more than enough energy to push them back. But it's obvious that they're major weakness is that they can't exist solely outside of Imaginary space, as proven by voyager and Kevin when they're energies were shifted to another place, as well as Virgil and Albedo when both of them chose to move on to other places, therefore causing them to dissipate. ID could yank them out of Imaginary space without thinking, he'd get pissed that hitting them wasn't doing much and just go berserk, releasing the energy needed to displace them.

Well, while Id can summon enough power to destroy large unmoving targets like the Solarian capital and Elru (which I don't think we even know the precise size of the nation) he would be hard pressed to hit someone who can appear and disappear at will. They can teleport across the galaxy. Id only ever teleported a short range out of his Gear. As I said, if Id was more rationale and a cunning strategist, he could use that power to beat nearly anyone. But he is not. Voyager at least has about 200+ years on him. Most of that time was spent gaining information and knowledge and he's quite intelligent. Id would need to hit them with his immense power as the Contact to hurt them enough. And besides, as you said, they merely project themselves in our world. It is said in the database on them that they can make themselves appear in photo equipment if they want so theoretically, they could simply make themselves invisible to Id and anyone else. If they're only visible through projecting perception into the minds of others, they can simply cut that off.

So, Id would have to take on an invisible, teleporting opponent. Each Contact wields the power of god, right? Well, they seem to die easily enough. While Voyager showed he could be stabbed through the chest and tossed intoa wall, it did nothing. That would not work with Id.

XD well that's what I was saying. You can't beat them physcially because they are not physically here. What is seen and felt are merely projections of themselves from imaginary space. ID isn't rational but he's instinctive. He's not going to keep on hitting at somthing he can't hit. And BECAUSE he's a contact, he'll be able to feel the energy a Testament gives off, and very likely find it's source, giving him somthing to attack. He has enough power to survive a Testament onslaught and let his instincts lead him to yank them right out of imaginary space just to get at them, not knowing it would actually defeat them. Then he'd get pissed at it being over before he got to hit somthing and go on a rampage XD. Of course this is only speculation from playing the games, as they are set in different worlds it's impossible to tell if his instincts as the Contact would lead him to that conclusion. Though I'm sure he'd feel their energy from Imaginary space at the very least. It's very likely ID would get annoyed enough at not having somthing to hit to pull at them there.

I never got an idea he could sense a multi-dimensional being with his power or attack that being's body in another dimension.



Unfounded, as well. Perhaps after he made contact with the WE but as Grahf said, his body was never at its full potential until after the Contacta nd his personas merging. Thus, Id could not make true contact with the Existence. Id, as it stands, without that power could not attack another dimension to destroy his opponent.



Well, I saw Id and while his power is singularly higher than any other life-form short of U-DO, the Existence and perhaps Wilhelm and chaos, he simply is lacking in abilities transcending and crossing dimensions. IMaginary space is something never even mentioned in Xenogears so how to say Id would have any idea of its existence let alone how to push his power into it and attack?

Yeah, this damn thread totally ruined a big chunk from Xenosaga Episode 3. Thanks for the spoiler warning you jerks, except Xerno, thanks for having the thought of putting the warning.

You're welcome. I think I described one scene in the game and that's not a huge spiler, I don't think.

You certainly are not that big of a fan. In Xenosaga EVERYTHING can be spoiler. I dont even want to know if a character smiles or doesnt smile whenever somebody told a stupid joke on the Elsa.

MMy current ranking:
(strongest to weakest)

U-DO
Omega w/Zohar and Abel
chaos/Mary/Wilhelm
Albedo (end of XSII)
Testaments
E.S.es
T-elos

That's with Yuriev merged together with it, right? Dunno, but I found the ES battle with that thing very easy. Of course, storywise it's untouchable, until Albedo appears on stage to mess it all up for Yuriev. It's just that I found that fight easy (unlike Yuriev on foot), but storywise I agree.

Storywise, yes. Whether it's just Omega Res Novae, as seen in the fight with Yuriev on foot, or Omega Metempsychosis, from the E.S. fight, Omega w/Zohar and Abel seemed to be the ultimate power in Xenosaga in my opinion.

I mean, on one hand, you have U-DO's power (the Zohar) and piloting and controlling that power is U-DO's own avatar.

See the XSIII Entry for Omega Metempsychosis:

“Abel has been built into the control device in the unit’s core, due to the need for the higher-dimensional “power” flowing directly through the Zohar to be stabilized for dimensional space.”

Grahf can appear anywhere he wants too. He can teleport and his Alpha Weltall can appear anytime, give power to a bad guy, then dissapears. And Grahf doesnt even have his full power since he doesnt have his original body, which is why he was after Fei when Fei was still a child. And Grahf was indeed an intelligent and cunning person. Id was a crazy and angry, and what do u do when ur crazy and angry? You go destroying things using brute force. Who knows what else they can do, i mean they do have the power of the WE, which is like a god i guess. Also, Alpha Weltall is one of the hardest boss, if not the hardest boss, in both games, so Grafh/Id/Fei/Abel so on beats everyone storywise and battlewise, except U-DO and the WE. Regardless their seer badass emo awesomeness is enough to mop the floor with everyone.

Well I liked Grahf and Id but I didn't find Fei to be a particularly interesting character. He was a good character, but he just seemed to have something missing for me. I think if you almost wanted to make a comparison with Grahf, I'd go with Albedo. Granted he wasn't able to appear wherever he wanted and Grahf was quite powerful, but I think if we wanted the most powerful 'human' character, it would be Albedo. While I don't think you see any of it, Xenogears does say that Kahn, Fei's father with no extraordinary powers, managed to take Fei away and momentarily beat Grahf.

Then again, hypothetically if it was to be an Albedo vs Grahf, it may be a little hard to tell who would come out on top. Grahf is physically powerful, since he can take out Gears with his bare hands, not to mention talented in combat. Albedo is basically invincible considering Grahf's power, before or after Episode II. Only issue is that I dont think Albedo knows how to fight. He just used U-DO's power that he had to overpower just about anybody. But also, I would imagine Grahf would get annoyed and teleport away after Albedo's body parts regenerated a dozen times =p.