This topic is to discuss possible links and conections between Xenogears and Xenosaga storylines.

Those who are still playing should refrain from going further, in other words:

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Well the things I noticed:

Omega Universatas: Weltall
Omega Metempsycgosis: Deus EX machina (Same for those floating balls)
Vessels of Anima: Anima Relics -- though the Anima Relics are not shaped as spines, but rather look like the Zohar Emulators

Also, when I first played the series, I had a crazy theory that KOS-MOS was somehow Eva (the woman that apear at the end ov Xenogears' Intro).

When chaos recreated Lost Jerusalem, there's a possibility that that planet is the one where Xenogears take place. Since that way it would make sence for the Zohar to be already there...

The mutations accidentaly unleashed by Fei and the other's when they remove the 7th seal may be because the people were related to the Gnosis. Even the Angelic Gears that apear after that look a lot like those stronger Gnosis.

The recurrent reencarnations of Fei and Elly could be probably related to Abel and Nephelin's role on the Recreation of lost Jerusalem. I personaly think Abel is the Reencarnation of the Messiah (AKA Christ) or another form for Him.

But the inconsistances...

The Planetary Wepon System suposedly was being transport by a Immense Colony-Ship (the Dämerung, maybe...) when it weht out of control (again...) and the ship crashed on a planet where there was no previous Human life. The ship had also a super-computer (don't remember the name, but it's a refference to the Tree of Wisdom), what make me think strong that it could be the Dämerung, but the ship was comanded by military/Federation (ignoring Uniform Design), what would make little sense.
Not to mention that Omega Metempsychosis, Merkabah and everything else was suposedly obliterated by the dimensional shift that recreated Lost Jerusalem.

Also, the Dämerung was pretty far from the action. (And to think that the Rhine Maiden was only used once... T_T)

Shion's mission was apparantly repopulate Lost Jerusalem (Way to go Allen! XD). That would make sence in the character of Shitan Uzuki. it may sound strange, but this is influence of Japanese Culture as well. In Japan, though rare, the man and offspring may take the Mother may inherit the wife/mother's name.
And Shitan appearently is Jin's reencarnation. But that still doesn't seem to fit well in the chronology...

And the unknown...

What happened to KOS-MOS. chaos said she should sleep for a while, but made clear that she would wake up again!...

Well, Xenosaga, I have been told, is only a re-telling of Xenogears, they aren't part of the same series. So many of those inconsistancies dont really mean anything if they are between Saga and Gears, because, as I said, its a retelling. I figured that the reason that the whole Yuriev thing was supposed to be part of the retelling of Episode V (Also known as Xenogears) is because they made all of the references to it in Xenosaga, if that makes any sense.

Anyway, some things I noticed as kind of....easter eggs, as they say, to Xenogears are the following:

The Boss fights in all 4 of the orbs in Abel's Ark.
If you pay attention, the first looks like Fenrir, Citan's Omnigear.
The Second I believe looked like Bart's Omnigear, can't remember the name.
The Third looked like El-Stier, or Rico's Omnigear.
And Finally, the fourth looked kind of like Billy's Omnigear, also can't remember the name.
Also, some of the attacks of these bosses are similar to some of the attacks of the above-mentioned gears from xenogears.

Also, I kind of thought that the transformation of Abel's Ark to what it looked like after to looks somewhat like the Eldridge, which makes sense, because it was carrying Deus, also known as Omega Metempsycgosis or whatever, as this is how they retold it in Xenosaga (at least, thats how I thought of it, I also thought of Yuriev to be like Krelian was in Xenogears, which, they are somewhat similar, but not completely).

Well, there realy is lot of just to see references. Like Leoupod (Seibzhen) and Mai (Mary).
The game really look more like a re-telling. But the original idea for the series, was exacly to show the previous events that led to Xenogears.


Really?! I didn't noticed that! But that again I fough those things with merciless non-stoping insane attacks, never eally stoped to look at them. Even when I fough Omega Universatas, I only noticed it was Weltall when it opened its wings!
Speaking of wich, Omega Universatas is attached to Omega Metempsychosis Right Arm. Then what is that other "Gear" on it's left arm???

Well, after playing through the series entirely, and seeing the direction they took, is very hard to link Xenosaga and Xenogears at this point. Doing so would be like filling in an ince cube tray with dirt, you are filling it but not with what you are supposed to. If that analogy doesnt make any sense what i mean is that we shouldnt kill oruselves with this games and enjoy them as two separate experiences.

I have thought about their connections but not anymore, at least not in the same way.



Thats funny I have never thought of Miang/the original mother as Eva/Eve, but the parallelism is there.



The Zohar crash landed alongside Deus, The Mother, Abel and everything on the Elridge on Xenogears' earth, the Zohar wasnt there in the begining, nothing was there in the begining.



I am still foggy on this myself, not even the databse helps.

Also I think is a bit too early for the events in xenogears to start getting prepared, like 10000 years or so.

Hey i do enjoy Xenosaga a lot. And do see it mostly as a sidestory. But Xenogears was the best RPG I've ever played, I can't help it!


First of all, I did meant "Eve" (Eva is Portugues/Latin), sorry!, Biblical characters translations is hard.

Her blue hair and ocasional blue eyes was what kept me leading to that line of thought. maybe she would become something more than just an Android on the course of the series.


*Embarassed*
It's been a long time since I've played Xenogears, i can't remember everything very well...
But I think you're right.



Forget what I said! In this mean time I researched "Yeshua" on Wikipidia. It's an ancient word for "Jesus". So..., if anyone is Jesus, is chaos!
I thought of Abel, because of his role as God/U-DO's Avatar...

The game's rather ambiguous on this point as well, but chaos is not Jesus, though he is certainly an aspect of the divine. You can see a flashback with chaos and Mary watching Jesus preach, so chaos is a separate entity.

From dialogue with Wilhelm, he seems more like a glorified fail-safe device for the universe's destruction implemented by God than anything else.



The game's rather ambiguous on this point as well, but chaos is not Jesus, though he is certainly an aspect of the divine. You can see a flashback with chaos and Mary watching Jesus preach, so chaos is a separate entity.

From dialogue with Wilhelm, he seems more like a glorified fail-safe device for the universe's destruction implemented by God than anything else.

You got a point. And you make me think that they all may be one.
I mean, chaos may be part of Jesus. Thinking back to the Bible, when crucified, Jesus asked his father to spare and forgive mankind. Maybe the job to punish mankind was chaos'. Also, chaos and Mary are a pair, but so is Mary and Jesus, what would indirectly form a trinity, so comonly present on the Christian culture...




But, if I remember well, there were no survivors from that ship...
I think Eva gave birth to the new society by herself, but somestuff don't fit up very well, like the Empror, Fei and Elly recurrent re-encarnation, and even Shitan (Citan), that Episode III strongly emlied was somehow related to Jin.

No, Abel survived, he was protected by the Deus System. The original Mother (seriously, where did this Eva name came up? I dont remember her ever being called that, am I missing something) did gave birth to Cain and the ministry but a computer gave birth to the rest of humans after the original mother was split into Miang and Ellyham and it was this first one who controlled the computer.

I'm not sure, but I think soon after possessing Elly's body, she referred herself as Eva/Eve. But who am I to say it. You seem to have played Xenosaga waymore than I. But just you wait, I'm gonna play it again. Espere e verá! Mwahahahahaha!!...
("Just wait and you'll see!" Mwahahahahaha!!...)

I don't think that Jin's relationship with Citan has any real purpose to the overall story in this game. Citan while memorable was not a central character in this series. They just threw a character like Jin in, just like they threw in Weltall. It's done for nostalgic purposes.

Just look at Weltall-like gear we face in Mitlia. We can say the same about this mysterious black gear and the following up ID-variant. It does make sense for Weltall to be in the game, especially when the gear was said to be from an ancient civilization in XG. It is the Destroyer (of God) in that game and it is possible that UTIC wanted to create a weapon capable of matching God (like Omega) but without having to use the Zohar directly. Even if true it doesn't really matter, because Weltall is not a significant figure in this world. In this game it's not about characters, it's following up on the concept and/or themes behind this game. Jin could be back in Lost Jerusalem, but it wouldn't affect the grand story.

This is not Final Fantasy, and that's the main reason why that game rarely has sequels, because the story is not as sophisticated as the Xeno-series. Characters are more significant in the world while everyone else takes a back seat (FFXII may change that due to FFT, Vagrant Story influence) but in the Xeno-series the universe is supposed to be grand. It's true that XS doesn't give you that feeling of XG in terms of grand 'world' (well, the 2nd disc of XG didn't either) but it storyline is more than successful. This series was held back because it requires rediculously sophisticated, taking down many novels. Yes, most novels, especially the vast majority of the modern ones are crap. Those that want to continue H.G. Wells, Nietzche, heck even Jesus are not funded, or forced to tone down. Most books regarding these figures tend to be very political and so off-tangent---- Is it issue about race? Or how aliens are part of a scheme to screw the world up? It's all stupid. ------ In contrast, the Xeno-series is trying to re-start that 'discussion' that Nietzsche, Bible, or even before, the Avestan scriptures and Rig Veda were developing. Exactly, these stories, the concept have been in the human psyche ever since we were living in the coastal parts of East Africa! It makes sense that such a grand story may not be profitable, simply because humans are too scared to venture so far into the unknown.

In constrast, Fei, Elly, have a vital role because they have a direct relationship or interaction with U-Do, Zohar or the Wave Existence. In all these stories, we often hear of super-natural, demi-gods, and these characters represent them. They satisfy our need of having human-like characters who are strong, capable of influencing the influence. Actually they could be even replaced with aliens who are usually seen as not only intelligent but even shaping human affairs today. But that would odd and hence we see human-looking Demi-Gods. I guess, they're the angels...


RE: Gnosis being transported back to Lost Jerusalem

I don't think we're going to see Margulis re-appear once again. It's probably going to be reincarnation, the Gnosis will become humans that are the reincarnation of the human prior to Gnosification. That explains why Citan looks like Jin. Nothing significant, just cosmetic.

I may agree with the nostalgic part. But to say that Shitan was not a central character?! He is the most present character after Fei, and the one that secretly (at first) is guiding and manipulating you...

And on a personal note: If they wanted to be nostalgic, should have done it to the non-mech battle sistem.



That's really likely, and Omega Universatas, had barely any part in the story...


Have you being living on a cave for the past few years:
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberous
Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis
Final Fantasy X-2

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the uniqueness of each Final Fantasy, but that's long gone!



True. Period.


I don't know about they being angels... Even asuming the possibility of another Xeno game/series, to fill the gap between Xenosaga and Xenogears, it's very likely that they're serious to the relation between Fei and Elly X Abel and Nephelin.

I just completed the database, and discovered something really interesting: (spoiler, mark to see it)
Back to Lost Jerusalem Era, the Vector Interprises Conglomerate, took hold of the Zohar, and conducted a bunch of experiences, leaded by Grimoire. Those experiences involved people with afinity with the Zohar -- Just like Joachim's Acute neurosis Facility. He also created a program to activate it, the Lemegeton program (the Song of Nephlin is a fragment of that program). During an experiment involving a little girl with particularly high afinity to the Zohar, it went out of control (as it would happen several more times), the girl was the first to disapear victm to a phenomenon that would engulf all Earth, forcing mankind into space. That girl was Nephelin.
But, at the exact same moment Nephlin vanished, Abel apeared.

Also, it is said that Abel's Ark is his craddle. And the Ark has a blue planet on its core. I believe that is the Gnosified Earth, just like Ariadne turned into Cathedral Ship.




The main idea behind reencarnation in most cultures, is that you live a life diferent from the previous. Not to mention the fact that you hold no memory of your previous lives, except maybe way deeply on your subconcios.

Also, the reencarnation of the Gnosis as humans, I believe that could be related to the mutations you find in Xenogears. Particularly the huge outbreak of humans mutating into monsters (and those Angelic Gears, that look a lot like the Angelic Gnosis!) after you remove The 7th Seal...

I am not sure but i think Liquid Snake meant that Citan/Shitan was not a central character in the Xenosaga series. Its clearly evident he played a huge role in Xenogears, not in xenosaga, naturally




Those were half assed sequels made for fanboys, I dont think its adequate or fair to link them to the final fantasy stories they continued/preceded, not even to FF7, aside from being fanservice.

[quote name='Razael' date='Nov 2 2006, 02:44 PM' post='565561']
[quote name='Liquid_Snake' post='565529' date='Nov 2 2006, 10:17 AM']
This is not Final Fantasy, and that's the main reason why that game rarely has sequels[/quote]
Have you being living on a cave for the past few years:
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberous
Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis
Final Fantasy X-2

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the uniqueness of each Final Fantasy, but that's long gone! [/quote]

Those were half assed sequels made for fanboys, I dont think its adequate or fair to link them to the final fantasy stories they continued/preceded, not even to FF7, aside from being fanservice.
[/quote]

Well, I'd like to play 'FFVII: Before Crisis', but I agree with you.
But I've heard that the PS3 Final Fantasy generation will be splited in chapters, starting already with FFXIII!

PS.
I forgot to mention 'Final Fantasy VII: Last Order'. Is a 25 min OVA showing the Nibelheim inciden by the perspective of the Turks, particularly Shion/Tseng. This one is undenieably fanservice...

No, the FFXIII games (3 so far, 2 for consoles, 1 for mobile phones) are not chapters, they are different stories that have nothing to do with each other, they just take place in the same universe but besides from that there is not much more to connect them.

Maybe, but you gotta admit FFVII actually did need some more stuff to try and cover some of the plot holes...

And the films/sequels did such a great job...

Unfortunely, I havent played the games. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get my hands on 'Dirge of Cerberous' and I know I'll never play 'Before Crisis'.

Even so, I saw 'Advent Children' and it ROOOOOOOOOOOOOCK'D!!!!!!!!!!

Saga/gears aren't directly connected.

The third game pretty much proved it.
If they were meant to be, it'd show due to parellel years (the year of XS1/2 is the same year The Eldridge launched) and the parellel of Perfect Works.

Xenogears world might not even exist in Xenosaga world. Eldridge was not travelling via UMN. Abel was just some kid whose mother was missing whose want for a mother made Elhayym when the Zohar noticed him in its vicinity. However, the Zohar went god knows where, and U-DO has no want for a mother, as it doesn't seem to understand many of human concepts, I doubt he knows of the significance of a mother.

Not to mention the incarnations of Abel in Gears wanted to DESTROY DEUS, who wanted to RETURN TO EARTH. However, in Saga Abel goes to Earth with Nephilim, Jin's consciousness, chaos and KOS MOS.

Xenosaga is allegorical as a different way for events of Xenogears to take place, at most. Though it's probably allegorical of other things.

As a mater of fact, I could argue that the UMN represents Oil, and when it is completely gone, the world is very disjointed, and many years are spent on making a new Network, or a useable alternative energy source.

But that sort of thing can be done to nearly anything, can't it?

I know they're not directly cinected. The producer's themselves sayd, though, that Episode III was the end of Shion's Arc, not necessarely the end of the series.

For instance, I believe the possibility of Episode IV, with an adult Jr. (Actually, I thought he wold grow up soon after merging with albedo...) and a possible war for either Neo Earth or the God's Artifacts, or both.



Perfect Works is a draft for Xenogears plot. Xenosaga is based upon it. And the Episode I was aimed to follow it all the way to Xenogears.



The UMN ended with the creation of Neo Earth, at the End of Episode III.
U-DO, being eternal, does not understand the concept of a mother, but hes VERY CURIOUS.


I don't think Fei (Abel) wanted to destroy God. Maybe Id...
And God was a alien waveform existence that was somewhat emprisioned within the Zohar. It could nor go back to it's own realm.

BTW, Nephilin was a test subject for the Zohar Project back on Lost Jerusalem Era. She was the first to dissapear on a phenomenon that wold engulf the entire Earth. At the same moment Nephilin dissapear, Abel apeared.

Ya know, I was just wandering the reason why OMEGA Universatas would exist (though as a secondary element) on Episode III, when it hit me:

On Xenogears, Balthasar -- or rather "Old Bal", I think -- called Weltal "the Gear of the Slayer of God". That's probably it's porpuse indeed. I'm sure Yuriev, being the calculist he is, would create a montruous weapon that could, even if by the slightest possibility, turn or be turned against him. So Universatas is likely some sort of failsafe of the OMEGA Syste. The same goes for ORMUS (Old Miltia battle).

I may be letting my imagination go bi far, but this certamly makes sense to me. I think they just didn't had a chance to explore this more...

So, what do you think?