*Originally started as "who would win in a fight between Cloud and Squall"*

Zidane beats them all. Showed far more agility than both when dodging the Evil Forest and later the Iifa Tree's mad roots. Has also survived a shot from the Invincible, Garland trying to take away his soul and Kuja's Ultima which can destroy a planet. True, the second one beat him down totally but he survived the first one. AFTER two boss fights with the Silver Dragon and Garland.

Cloud may have melee speed with the whole bullet-timing but not better movement speed.

Well, see, Zidane has this thing called GRAVITY. It seems not to exist in Advent Children which follows the Laws of Anime which basically spit in the face everything Newton talked about. People can hover in the air unsuspended and bash their swords against each other with no support AT ALl but no one questions it... Especially since he showed no such power in the game. in fact, he was pretty much a chump in the game. As was Squall. Squall fought Seifer...and ran some in the various cutscenes of FFVIII. That's it. Sorry, but taking Kuja's Ultima, an attack far more powerful than Bahamut SIN's or anything these two have taken in the story, as well as a shot from the Invincible beats the living hell out of being stabbed or hit with an ice pick which both seemed to be highly effective against Cloud and Squall.

So, given that plus Zidane's superior agility and speed as seen in the Iifa Tree scene as well as him surviving all the Iifa Tree's roots slamming right down on him, he's shown superior durability and movement speed to either of them. Also, he was said to be stronger than Kuja. So, stronger than Kuja equals stronger than Cloud and Squall by 100.

Don't you just hate it when character defy gravity and manage to jump higher than is physically possible for huge amounts of time like Cloud... oh... and FREYA! Stop being a hypocrite... Your saying that Having a character raise their hand and making some gaint demon come out of thin air doesn't bother you, but having cloud jump really high is earth shattering to you? not everything about one game can suck and another game can be THAT perfect, especially when they are part of the same frikkin franchise. No one ever thinks much about what a raving fanboy has to say... if you want to be ignored then carry this on. It's entertaining but ultimatly tiresome...

Secondly... Stay on topic... Zidane doesn't come into this at all...

Well I'll answer just for fun. =p


And Kuja did not only hover during battles, but he also didn't fly out of Terra, or did I see wrong? And Freya...


Well who else survived that "oh-so-mighty" Ultima shot? Let's see... everyone.

So that would mean:

>

Eiko > Cloud


>

Quina > Squall

Really I just don't see Zidane putting up much of a fight against Cloud or Squall.

It's all over!

Bomb has rubbed off on me.

A. Kuja could float and fly...so what? Last I checked, he was not bound to the same laws as us. However, Cloud and the others are. As seen by the way HE FELL all the way down to Aeris' Garden. So, that's GRAVITY. Yet, that gravity seemed to be half-assed in Advent Children. He was hanging...and then once he lost his hold he fell down. That is the correctly applied use of gravity.



Well, yes, it would mean that. If Kuja can unleash a story-based move that was shown and seen as capable of wiping out a planet and the party can survive a blast from it, they are stronger than Cloud and Squall.



Well, let's see.
Squall- Fought Edea and got a chunk of magical ice thrown into him for his troubles. He managed to survive this...anything else?
Zidane- Took a shot from the Invincible, Kuja's Ultima, earth-rending roots and is indeed destined to gro stronger than Kuja himself.

Exactly, and Zidane is the same as Kuja. Yet Cloud still ripped Bahamut apart while Zidane stood and watched as it destroyed the city. What a fighter indeed. Honestly I've never seen Zidane as a good fighter, and no wonder since he's never been shown doing anything in the fighting area.


Actually it only cut off the pilars, which a Fire spell probably can do as well.
But arguing that Eiko is stronger than Cloud, you're losing your credibility in this topic fast.


So basically, Zidane is the best at getting his ass kicked, and hit by every spell and attack while the other heroes usually avoid them instead? Yeah I can see that lasting long for him in a battle with Cloud or Squall. I'm sure they'll give him all that time he needs to recover after every attack that hits him.

A. Zidane was not the same as Kuja. When Kuja became “Trance Kuja” he was far beyond any other person in the game in terms of abilities. Everything he did, such as destroying Terra, crossing back to Gaia, causing the Iifa Tree to start its assimilation and so-forth, kinda show he had a huge up-surge in power. Among this up-surge in power came the ability to float.
B. Cloud did even less in the game. He went up and stabbed Sephiroth in the back...not particularly demonstrative of fighting ability. When Zidan eis blessed with a fanservice movie, I’m sure we’ll see him doing more than what we saw him do. But as Zidane grew up as a theif with Tantalus and all Cloud has ever been was a low-level grunt and then a test subject, I don’t really know where his amazing fighting skills came from...
C. Zidane did not “watch” Bahamut destroy a city. He did “watch” it destroy Brahne’s fleet but that happened in about half-a-minute and agood distance away from where he was. When Bahamut attacked Alexandria, he was in the castle looking for Garnet and Eiko.




A Fire spell? Huh...and I’m losing my credibility....

Kuja destroyed the planet with that move. It was said numerous times that Terra was “destroyed.” So, it was obviously not only Pandemonium he struck with it.

QUOTE(Sadistic Angel)
Well, let's see.
Squall- Fought Edea and got a chunk of magical ice thrown into him for his troubles. He managed to survive this...anything else?
Zidane- Took a shot from the Invincible, Kuja's Ultima, earth-rending roots and is indeed destined to gro stronger than Kuja himself.



That’s a gross misrepresentation. Pretty childish as well. How do you “avoid” a shot from the Invincible when you’re at the top of a castle and its beam wipes out not only the vastle but the area surrounding it? How do you “avoid” something when you purposefully cover somebody (Kuja) from attack? It’s like judging somebody as crappy for not dodging a bullet because they jumped in front of someone to protect them from said bullet. Cloud didn’t seem so expert at not getting stabbed unless he got his target from behind. Squall was also schooled by Idea with some bits of ice....



Well, as he can take far more than either of them, he’ll have the definite advantage. One bit of ice took out Squall. One shot from Zidane’s Ultima Weapon should suffice just as much. And he has the luck of not only having better durability feats, but also Trance. They keep pounding on him, which he can take, and he goes into Trance and wipes who’s ever left right out.

Well taking that into consideration, I guess Cloud and Squall can use their limit breaks. Omnislash and Lionheart?

Hmmm... Zidane should be able to take those right?

No. They only get their limits after considerable damage that FAILS to KO or kill them. Zidane's durability is higher than theirs. This means he can go into Trance 'cause he'll liast till his Trance Guage is full. I don't see Squall "one icicle took me out" Leonheart lasting that long against strikes from Zidane's Ultima Weapon.

Squall, Zidane, and Cloud would all triple KO each other Marvel vs. Capcom 2 style due to immense suckage on all of their parts.

I don't feel I should have to explain myself.

Zidane can use trance as well.


How is that "less" than doing nothing? Zidane was never shown doing anything. Cloud showed his fighting skills in Advent Children. Comparing that to nothing?


Why didn't he fight it off instead like Cloud? Because he can't. Heck even Yuffi, Barret, Cid and Vincent helped out. They're better fighters than Zidane as well.
He also watched the Black Waltz try to kill Vivi. I don't see Cloud just standing still like Zidane during that moment.


Fire spells can break things. The black mages used fire, and other magic. I doubt those pillars had magic resistance to anything but Ultima. And having a spell (any spell) cast numerous times and circulating all over the place does more harm than one that's just cast once, like Kuja did in battle. That's like going swiming at the beach and saying "I survived that little water wave, which technically is powerful enough to destroy an entire city" comparing it to a Tsunami.


Well Zidane still gets hit by more attacks than them. And speaking of dodging big attacks, Cloud's powers shielded him from Bahamut's flame as he passed right through it. Let's see Zidane that.


"Zidane can take more than them" is just speculation on your part. One slice from Cloud and it's game over. Story battles are different than in game battles with "phoenix downs" and not actually getting cut from sword attacks. And every time Zidane "the master of getting hit" got hit, he needed several minutes to recover. It's not likely that Cloud or Squall are as generous as Necron and Kuja were.
And do you see anyone actually walking around with an ice spear in their chest without collapsing?

I'm curious if you know that Final Fantasy IX nothing more than a fictional RPG game created by Squaresoft. How can you even discuss which character "better"? That's just a matter of opinion and point of view. They're fictional characters, you can dream in your head that Zidane can beat Cloud and Squall all you want, but since they're fictional characters, it's just your fantasy.

It's baffling how you could seriously discuss the subject.

There is no place for moderate and reasonable thinking in today's world.

A. Zidane was not the same as Kuja. When Kuja became “Trance Kuja” he was far beyond any other person in the game in terms of abilities. Everything he did, such as destroying Terra, crossing back to Gaia, causing the Iifa Tree to start its assimilation and so-forth, kinda show he had a huge up-surge in power. Among this up-surge in power came the ability to float.



Well, duh. But Kuja, as he himself said, did not use a “normal Trance” because a normal Trance would not be good enough.His Trance was augmented. The effects of it are not known. It could be it made it permanent or it increased the power. But his Trance is different from Zidane’s and everyone else’s.



I was simply comparing a person destined to be an Angel of Death who grew up in a team of bandits to a low-level grunt with no real special fighting ability and how amazing it is that the low-level grunt magically learned to block bullets. Boggles the mind. AC= 96% flash and 4% sense.



Yes...the Mr. T rip-off and retarded ninja are more powerful than an Angel of Death who is stronger than Kuja who shrugged off a head-on shot from Bahamut with little effect. So, if it barely scratches Kuja, it would do even less to Zidane. And he wasn’t going to fight Bahamut. He was going to get Garnet. Your twisted bias won’t change the plot. There is no dialogue relating to how he can’t stop Bahamut. The plot was simply that he go and find Garnet and Eiko. That’s it.



The Black Mages never used a Fire Spell on anything other than other beings and a few buildings. Not anything the size of the towers Kuja was blasting down in seconds.



As far as I know, perhaps you know more about the game and saw something else, Kuja’s Ultima was THE END. How does he use it more than once when just casting it once destroyed the party?



As I said above, you probably will if FFIX ever gets a fanservice movie.

.

I know very well that story battles are vastly different than in-game fights. Had to argue that point many, many times with people who think Sephiroth’s Supernova attack actually can destroy the solar system. Anyway, Zidane is not likely gonna be hit by Squall. Squall has piss-all in the way of actual showings of speed. He is by no means faster than Zidane or as agile as Zidane from what I remember in FFVIII.



Well, this one character villain I really like took getting run through and did nothing but ram the person who did it into a wall. Then laughed. But he is vastly different than Zidane. I like him a lot more, too.

I wrote this huge post last night talking about everything thats been said so far and full of chunky quotes but in the end I didn't post it... Why?

First of all this is quite tiresome... I can't be bothered to argue with stubbon people other such trivial matters. SA doesn't even bother listening to anyone who doesn't agree with his own oppinion because he can only see flaws where he wants to see them. (This may or may not be true, but this is what it appears on the outside... Prove me wrong)

Second of all, it is only SA's charasmatic approach which is getting him anywhere...
"A tiny peice of ice hits Squall"
"A MEGA SUPERDUPERMEGAULTIMATEMEGASUPER ULTIMA SPELL COULDN'T EVEN MAKE A DENT ON ZIDANE!"
Is basically all he is doing. Calling it a tiny peice of ice is a gross understatement. It was a large sharp chunk of ice that was thrown into him with such force that it peirced his whole body. What's the point of arguing with such ignorance.

Thirdly, All the characters live under different physics, How can we tell what is stronger from different games. It's impossible. Saying Zidane goes into trance would make him more powerful than the other two is also not very well thought out... Trance had nothing to do with skill but was something that was part of the world of FFIX, so surly is Cloud and Squall were fighting in the world of FFIX then they would also have trance... and if Zidane were fighting on another world there would be no trance. There are too many factors or actually say either way who would win or not and beliving that someone is wrong or right over this arguement is so idiotic that it gives me a headache. It's all based on oppinion.

I personally don't think Zidane would win, he may be a skilled Theif but in an all out battle I would think that Squall and Zidane have the upperhand. Squall was trained simply for battle from a very early age in Garden and Cloud already has combat experience when he worked as a soldier for Shinra (Granted, it wasn't SOLDIER, but it was still battle experience), Combine that with the Jenova cells that would probably give him some added strength. Cloud and Squall were raised simply to fight while Zidane wasn't, so that's why I lean more towards Cloud and Squall than Zidane, however that is just one factor and My Oppinion. That's just the way I see it going.

I've picked on SA for this but he isn't the only stubbon one in the topic, there are other people who doing exactly the same as him... (even myself... but I hold my hands up to that...)

We could look at it statistically-

Cloud hits- 9999
Squall hits- 9999
Zidane hits- 9999

Hmm

Now all that is left is to compare the speed.

Zidane wins.

And Eva's response made me laugh- it's so true But it apparently means so much to some people to find clarity in who is the best.

I wrote this huge post last night talking about everything thats been said so far and full of chunky quotes but in the end I didn't post it... Why?



You’re right. I don’t listen to your or Athrun’s opinions. I read them. Aren’t I clever? But, if I was ignoring everything you all said, I would not respond. I would continue on my merry way, not challenging it. I’d simply post after you posted my thoughts again and again with no notice or attention given at all to what you two are saying.



Well, it is, in comparison to what Zidane took, “tiny.” A very small piece of ice, an icepick no longer than six inches could pierce your body as well. The fact that Edea made a larger piece of ice and tossed it doesn’t actually seem as impressive as Zidane who survived a shot from the Invincible while the entire Alexandrian castle and most of Alexandria did not. Hell, that chunk of ice appeared to have “killed” Squall until he woke up sometime later all nice and recovered. Same goes true for Zidane. So, Zidane survived the Invincible’s blast and woke up after healing. Squall took a piece of ice to the chest and woke up healed. Winner: Zidane.



Well, we are not placing any of them in any one world as far as I can see. Zidane is not in the FFVII Gaia and Squall is not in the FFIX Gaia. We are simply tallying up skills and abilities shown. So, everything should work fine for everyone.



The fact is “potential.” Like Anakin Skywalker, Zidane’s potential is much higher than Squall or Cloud. Well, mainly Squall. Squall is, by all accounts, only human. He can not fly or do anything superhuman from the cutscenes we gleamed in the game. So, his potential is limited and below Zidane’s. Zidane is an Angel of Death, created as a bringer of war and death. As he matures, he comes into grasping the full might of his birth. That being surpassing Kuja and becoming stronger than Kuja. Before AC, Cloud would have been nothing more than an exceptional human as well. But, with AC, his ability to block bullets and melee speed, he’s obviously beyond that. Zidane still is faster in movement, however which events it out some.



Like I said in the Villains topic, bias does not equal inaccuracy. I am not lying or leaving details out. I simply am leaning towards my preferred choice.

So how exactly does FF9 apply to the laws of gravity ("unlike FF7") again, with Kuja flying and Freya jumping 5 million feet up into the sky?


That Angel of Death part sounds really cheesy. Anyway, Cloud became stronger due to the Jenova cells in him. It also made him mentally weaker for a few years though. Both Cloud and especially Squall are trained in military combat. Zidane is just a thief. He would get his tail handed to him in a second. Kadaj and Sephiroth moved faster than Zidane did in his little forrest running FMV, but Cloud matched their speed.


Are you trying to put as much cheese in the posts as possible now?
Anyway, Zidane just stood and watched as the Black Waltz attacked the ship.



What an awesome fighter.


Yes those building sure werent as thick as these increadibly thick pillars that Kuja destroyed.



The engineer who constructed them must have built them to last.


I guess you didn't understand what I said. A spell circulating and hitting many times over does more damage than one that strikes once. A wave does less damage than a tsunami. Or do you not see the difference?
So stop comparing that attack to one that can "destroy a world".


Really? So then why are you talking about getting an ice spear through your chest as something minor?

This is all based on opinion and conjecture- There is no right or wrong. Either way, you guys aren't going to sway each other; but I did find Athrun's post amusing with regards to the pillars and the "Awesome fighter" comment. This topic is getting to the redundant stage, but it's very amusing

Because neither of them are human. And the humans of the game, and indeed most lifeforms from what I saw, were not hovering over the ground or staying up in the air with no support. Cloud is nothing more than a human being and human beings like himself are fully tied to the laws of gravity. That is why Tifa fell in the game when she made the leap for the Highwind. This is why Cloud fell as soon as he lost his grip on the bridge in the second reactor.



A>B>C logic. That's like saying Raiden moves as fast as Solidus or Leon moves as fast as Krauser. Just because Sephiroth can do it, doesn't mean Cloud can. Unless they had a foot-race?



No. I'm pointing out the obvious that the Mr. T rip-off is not better than the Angel of Death. Ya damn $#^$! And yes, he stood there. wHAT OF IT?



Wnat an awesome fighter Cloud was when he let Dyne blast away at Barret. Or when he stood there and watched Cormeo dangle Elenaa nd Yuffie over their doom in Wutai. You do realize there's only so much one person can do, right? Tell me, the Cloud from IN THE GAME, did any sort of impressive fighting? Just think over the game for a minute and tell me how many times he showed any sort of fighting skill in the game when danger reared its head as opposed to when Zidane was confronted with danger. Oh and Zidane doesn't have magic. So he really couldn't have done much of anything.Just as how Cloud couldn't have done much of anything when Comeo had Yuffie and Elena.



The phrase... "size isn't everything" is probably not unheard of to you, I assume? Not implying anything but it's fairly common. But, just because they appear like that, you know zero of their composition. They could be the level of adamantium in their composition. I mean, Wolverine's claw aren't terribly thick or long compared toa broadsword but which is more durable and stronger? You are basically saying because they don't appear to be that thick, that they aren't. Another phrase: "looks aren't everything."



Kuja destroyed Terra. You don't seem to understand that. In-game dialogue points to him destroying the planet. So, why do you keep saying Ultima didn't destroy the planet?



Didn't I already say that I thought it was minor in comparison to what Zidane took?



Some brilliant calculations there. But you didn't take into account that with those figures you've apparently created from deep and lengthy study of presented facts, there is another number to be accounted for. The big, round zero for people who care about your figures. Contribute something of value, or don't post. I don't see how saying Athrun as 1 and I have 0 is any sort of valuable post and thus is more akin to spam because it does not relate to the topic at hand. The topic is about Zidane Tribal against Squall and Cloud. YOu did not post on any of that and thus, spam.

are you done talking yet?? i mean come on bro, zidane sucks, end of story, the game sucked end of story, you've lost the war, stop the fight, make the peace, shut up and stuff.

seriously though, are you done talking?

Tidus > Squall > any random character > Zidane

YAY now its not spam!!

Cloud has parts of an alien entity inside of him.
And either way I only mentioned this because you said that the "game" FF 9 was bound by gravity unlike FF7. Anyway, Cloud can jump really high. Zidane can't. Advantage Cloud.
He moves faster than anything I've seen from Zidane. Advantage Cloud.
Zidane just stands and watches when an enemy attacks. Cloud doesn't. Advantage... Cloud?


It's not like those examples at all. When they move fast, so does Cloud. Whether he ended up beating them or not, it happens on screen.



Cloud is extremely fast in Advent Children. You can't argue with what we see on screen, SA. Even your fanboyism must know its bounds somewhere. lol There are about 100 other examples I could show you with this fast paced fighting.


The Angel of Death is just a cheesy title. Like refering to Squall as the "Sorceress knight".
As for the "Angel of Death" talk, Zidane didn't go to discover that strength and never aquires it.
Cloud gains controll of his Jenova cells however, and does become stronger.


Those arguments are pretty weak, SA.
Barret asked Cloud not to step in. It was his fight.
And Yuffie would fall if he tried anything. He's fast, but not faster than the push of a button. Zidane however acted like a coward when the Black Waltz appeared. No one was dangling by a cliff, and no one asked him not to step in. For a hero he doesn't seem to have much in terms of fighting skills. And I don't see that trait helping him when fighting Squall or Cloud.

I don't recall Cloud and Squall not doing anything when facing an enemy. Cloud even challenged Sephiroth, knowing full well how strong he was. And about the not having magic part, Cloud didn't use any magic to take out Bahamut. Even though Bahamut flew a few billion feet up into the air, that didn't stop him either.


Come back with the building designs, then we can discuss pointless things.
Or maybe I should pull a "Sadistic Angel" and say that the walls that the Black Mages blasted away might be titanum and diamon reinforced..


How many ways are there to missread the same comment?
I didn't say Kuja didn't destroy Terra. (It was a dying planet btw. Good job.)
I said that Zidane and co didn't get hit by "a power that can destroy a planet."
I can throw a bucket of water in your face, but that doesn't mean you're strong enough to survive a tsunami.

A spell cast multiple times that circulates, hitting many times over is vastly different from a one-cast one-hit.
He might as well have used fire to blast those increadibly thick pillars and burn the cities.

So actually getting hit, getting pierced in the chest is minor compared to not being hit, but being inside a castle that gets destroyed? Zidane himself wasn't even hit.

Doctor: "Hey, put the patient with the pierced chest in the waiting room."
Nurse: "But doctor, he..."
Doctor: "I said put him in the waiting room! It's only a minor wound. This monkey over here experienced a collapsing building. It must be traumatising. He didn't actually get hit or anything, but it's still more serious."

Zidane didn't actually get hit by the shot, so don't overglorify his abilities.
The castle got shot.
And Zidane didn't get hit by any awesome planet destroying power either from Kuja.
Kuja destroyed the planet when he aquired his new Trance powers. And he cast multiple spells doing it.

By the way...

Ever heard of God modding?

Nothing wrong with that. You just made what is so far the best post in the FFI-IX forum, hands down.

Do you mind if I quote this to support my position that being anti-FFIX also equals being anti-intelligent?



So do all the black-caped men or Sephiroth clones. They too were bound to gravity. Just as Cloud was in the game. So, yes, they are humans with some additions. A person with a robotic hand is still human. All they have are some alien cells in them to grand them various abilities but obviously, as seen in teh game, defying gravity was not one of them. And you keep ignoring the difference between melee and movement speed. How does Cloud "move faster" than Zidane? In combat? In running? What?



You have some nerve calling me a fanboy when you spew out this kind of filth. Tell me - what could Zidane have done? Zidane does what he can do and that's limited just as what Cloud could have done to save Yuffie was limited. Calling Zidane a coward is anti-logical as Zidane both fought the Black Waltz #1 single-handedly to save Garnet and the others and also joined in the boss fight against #3. However, when #3 was on another airship, a good distance away from where Zidane could do anything, he did...nothing because...he could do nothing. Just as Cloud could do nothing to save Yuffie.



Well, see, Cloud couldn't do that in the game. And neither could Zidane. Otherwise, I don't see any reason Cloud just didn't jump right off Shinra HQ. Oh wait. Because in the game, there was gravity and laws. But, as AC is flashy BS made for nothing but to feed the ravenous billions of moronic FFVII fanboys, they need to have people jumping "a billion feet up" and doing absurd Anime feets to make up for the crappy graphics in the game the lack of a good storyline in the movie. And Cloud did not challenge Sephiroth. He went up and stabbed him in the back. And, for most of the AC fight, Sephiroth, being a moron, toyed with Cloud. Zidane on his own challenged a monster that could summon ice demons and cause blizzards as well as Garland. I would consider both far more powerful than Sephiroth in Nibelheim. And yes, Garland did beat him so don't bother bringing that up.



Then maybe you shouldn't post an argument of no value. Attacking the design of the building when you have zero knowledge of what they're made of is pretty lame.



Sorry to burst your bubble, but it wasn't. Learn your facts.

"After four tremendous sacrifices, eternal prosperity seemed within reach... Flora and fauna were revived, but...is still in stasis. Final results...are still pending..."

From Deilvert. Terra was not dying. It needed only Gaia's assimilation and it would be wholly restored. As of when Kuja destroyed it, it was on the up-swing but kept in stasis.



Well, as I'm thinking he knows more than you as do the people who made the game, I'm gonna guess that a Fire Spell wouldn't have done it. The designers made it that way for a reason and whatever that reason is, it's the right reason because they made it the way they thought it should be made.



Ah. i gotcha. Being on the upper-levels of a castle hit dead-on by the most powerful weapon in the game that results in not only the castle but most everything else in the kingdom being wiped out is not as severe as getting pierced by a big chunk of ice? An interesting argument. Well, just go look at the scene of Alexandria castle being wiped out and then look at Squall getting some magical ice jammed into him and tell me which looks more powerful and hard to live through.



i fail to see how that degrades the power of the attack. The attack was strong enough to wipe out the castle. So, if Zidane was inside the castle, at the time it was destroyed, how does that lessen its effect on him? A wrecking ball brings down an entire building down on top of you. Or you're hit directly by the wrecking ball. Which would be more effective, the tons of stone crashing down on you or the big black ball swinging into you? All of the castle was wiped out and Zidane was inside as as Eiko and Garnet. They all survived it which puts them all above ice-stabbed Squall.



Sorry, but see, Zidane and Squall are stuck in the realms of logic which their games were founded on. Both of them showed pretty human levels of speed and agility but Squall's little fight with Seifer kinda pales in comparison to what Zidane was doing when he went to get Kuja. If we were summing up purely in-game feats, Zidane beats them all easily. None of them showed any real special abilities or power in their games that puts them above exceptional humans.

Now why the hell aren't the quote tags working....Jesus.

mabye your not doing it right sadistic.. I mean come on though, Cloud wins and I really do think he wins easily. I think Cloud vs. Squall would be a good fight and Zidane could sit over to the side and watch, mabye hand cloud a towel after he wins..

SA you do put up a few good arguments, and Zidane isn't all bad he is quite okay but he isn't as good as Squall or Cloud, they are just full on fighters whereas Zidane's a bandit.

You're the one who brought up the bound by gravity bit in the first place you know. My only point, as was Flame's, is that some characters can jump really high, and others can fly. Zidane can't do these things. You started off by blaming FF7 as a game that it's not bound by gravity like FF9, and now you're saying the exact opposite..
Whatver, the point is it's a disadvantage for Zidane.

As for the speed, Cloud is shown moving faster in every way. I haven't seen Zidan move as fast as Cloud, Kadaj or Sephiroth. And don't even bring up combat speed for Zidane when have yet to even see any actual combat from him in the first place.
I can compare scenes from AC to FF9 in here and see who moves faster, but you can tell just by looking yourself.


Ok you managed to make an even weaker argument than before. Congrats.
Those two situations are nothing alike.
How do you think the best way is to determine a soldiers combat skills in the military? When he's allowed to fight or when someone points a gun to their friends head and says "move and I'll shoot"?

Don't compare combat "skills" to a hostage situation. The point is that Cloud has fought bigger and stronger monsters in earial combat at hights much higher. Zidane just stood still and watched with a scared facial expression. Cloud would not, if you saw Advent Children.


You're not one to claim that the FF7 game and AC movie takes plavce in a different universe. It's 100% FF7 canon, no matter what you say. And there are FMV's in both FF7 and FF9, so they can pull off flashy anti gravity scenes in both those games using those, which they did. So don't give me BS about this anti gravity law anymore because Cloud CAN and actually did do those things, even in the game. Or do you not remember when he walked upside-down in the Northern Cavern to give Sephiroth the Black Materia? And Sephiroth could fly in game.



Now just drop the gravity subject. Sorry, I just had to have a little fun after you started with the "we don't know, therefore we can only assume" arguments about pointless Fire spells and pillar designs.

And Cloud called out Sephiroth in Nibelheim. He just didn't bother to turn around and wouldn't stop what he was doing so Cloud stabbed him. And then again went after him and got wounded.
At this point Sephiroth was also much stronger than Cloud, and he knew that before he faced him.


If you go by "Sadistic Angel logics", then you can claim that anyone or anything might be wearing diamond plated clothes/armor in every single argument. And that we really don't know anything, so why discuss anything at all? Hey then Kuja wasn't using Ultima to destroy Terra, until you prove it. It looks like Trance Grand Leethal actually...

You're just being a troll here. But ok, I'll leave you and your building designs alone.
The point, which you always seem to miss, is that any magic can cause heavy damage while cast many times.


So basically, what I see is you completely ignored the main point again, and wrote a paragraph reply to what I only put as a sidenote instead?




More spells = more damage. Math is a universal language. And I was talking about Ultima... you really have a knack for missreading my posts. Ultima or any spell cast like that does immense damage. A spell cast once in battle is not as damaging.
And I saw Fire do plenty of damage by the Black Mages. So if you have any visual footage that says otherwise, feel free to post it. (FYI Fire is only one example. There are tons of other stronger spells, so don't get caught up with pointless things.)


Show me a screen of where Zidane actually gets hit by that shot. You must be dreaming. Head on? More like miles away.


Are you still over glorifying that lame "attack"? (If you can even call it an attack.)
This is what you've been raving on and on and on about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_TH8QBtALM

Lol! You must have gone blind or something. That beam was pathetic. All it did was cause a magical resonance in Garnets crystal and Alexander, and caused it to stab the structure. That's all. No one even got hit by it.

You've been bragging about that "shot" for quite a while now, and how great Zidane is because of it, but it's not even 1% of what you made it out to be. It didn't even happen.

When Alexandria actually gets destroyed later, Zidane and co. are miles away.
You don't even seem to remember what actually happened in these games anymore.
And you have yet to show any damage that Zidane or anyone actually endured on par with getting pierced, which both Zidane and Cloud experienced.

Rufus Shinra wasn't hit by diamond weapon's shot either. The building was.
Learn the difference.


Advent Children counts, whether you like it or not. Cloud moves faster than Zidane in that movie. And he has above human strength, yes. Squall is a trained elite fighter. Zidane is just a bandit who's so far yet to show a single bit of fighting experience. So before you knock on Squall's fighting scene with Seifer, how about at least having one for the little monkey boy at all?

When Alexandria Caste is destroyed... It's after Zidane and co have left... And when Zidane and co ARE in the caste The invincible does NOT 'blast the castle'... It simply over takes and minipulates the Eidolon that Eiko and Garnet have summoned to protect the castle. It is Alexander who destroys the castle... at first... The second blast I'm not too sure about... But my main point is that Zidane is not in the castle when the invincible blasts it (They leave the castle at the end of the FMV)... Zidane does not survive a blast from "The most powerful weapon in the game" (If it is the most powerful weapon then what is the whole point of Kuja minipulating Brahne to get the Eidolons... Surly the invincible can do more damage... Oh but I guess we shouldn't question FFIX's Airtight storyline... HA)

One more thing SA, You hate AC for being a fanservice... but that's exactly what the whole of FFIX is... the whole game was a fanservice...

So basically, Zidane is powerful enough to "survive" a beam that does not affect him at all, and does not even target him or any other human being to begin with? It only aimed to take over the Alexander. You're right, that's much more major than being impaled with an ice spear...
Those scenses you described before never even happened.

I think SA refers to this blast, which happens shortly after Zidane jumped to Garnet and did a Tarzan on a flagrope.
It questions me how they could be gone that quickly safely away from the blast, cause it is a big one, but I can't remember that scene completely, apart from the FMV's.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FRXE5Sigb6Y

Anyway, both have valid points and this is just another endless discussion you are in Hiku. Your posts do make me laugh, but none of you are getting anywere.

I don't believe Zidane would get his arse handed by Cloud or Squall, cause he is build to become stronger than Kuja and the game shows us what Kuja can do, so he is certainly not a wussy or anything.
The definate winner is whoever you want to win, all opinion.

Edit: Oh and Flame, the Invincible was in posession of Garland and Kuja was then not strong enough to face Garland.

SA mixed up that FMV with the other one. Zidane and the others weren't in the castle during the actual blast, as he claimed. If you look at his posts, he mentioned several times how Zidane got hit dead-on by the blast, and how he was inside the castle when it got hit, and how great he was for "surviving" this. They were there when Alexander was taken over, but after that they escaped.

And Pes, Zidane never seeks this power nor does he aquire it. So what he was "built" to become doesn't matter if he doesn't become it. Cloud could have easily taken Sephiroth's place and become a God, because of his genes, but he didn't want to. But I won't call Cloud a One Winged Angel God for that.

And hey, I'm not saying for sure who's going to win. But what I can say is that SA doesn't have any examples of where Zidane is shown enduring extreme damage, and there is not a single scene showing his combat skills. So basically he has nothing to argue with because FF9 didn't provide us with enough info.

Who says Cloud could have taken over the world and rule it, along with the universe (Sephinova).
As I said, this is all to your likings on who will win and it actually does not matter at all, it is who you want to win.

Zidane showed much progress at the end of the game, with the partially in game graphics where he was descending the Iifa Tree and I am positive it is not the same Zidane as we saw during the Black Waltz #3 scene, where indeed was a hostile situation.
I doubt Cloud would have jumped through that window and godmodded slashed BW#3 without thinking.

But maybe you can remember? Where was Zidane during that blast? I don't recall it took ages to have the Invincible shoot that destructive blast. So I wonder where he was then, cause I can't remember.

If Sephiroth is defeated, and Cloud allows Jenova to use his body instead, don't you think she would? It would be her only chance, seeing as he would be teh last one left that she can controll. He was built to become her slave, but he didn't go down that path.

As I said, who will win or not I already covered before. It's just that there is nothing to base an argument for Zidane on. Practically nothing anyway. That scene that SA talked about didn't happen. The Ultima they were hit with is not strong enough to destroy a planet. (Or there would be nothing left after the blast.) And Zidane was never shown fighting at all. Quite different from Squall and Cloud who were shown as being good fighters and being able to take a critical hit and live.

And why do you doubt Cloud would get out and god-mod the Black Waltz? Just curious seeing as that all he ever did in Advent children. Even with much stronger, bigger and faster enemies even higher up with nothing to stand on.

And I actually don't remember what happened between those two scenes or directly after. But it definitely doesn't show anyone actually get hit dead-on, or being inside the castle as they obviously were escaping and not going back inside.

Well, wouldn't it be Jenova ruling the planet having Cloud as her puppet?

Also, Cloud from the beginning of the game was less powerful than at the end of the game, at least I recalled that, it has been quite some time since I played FF VII aswell, so again I can't remember correctly.

It is just called development of a character, the Zidane from the beginning of the game is obviously diffirent than the one from the end of the game.
We don't see him fighting, but that does not mean he is not a fighter at all, it is just not shown.

And no, they were escaping, but to where? Isn't that cord attached to the castle? So wouldn't that mean they get back to the castle anyway?
I should pay more attention to those things, or play the games more, not really helping here, =P.

Well Cloud would still be more powerful if he is taken over. He would be the one absorbing the planets energy instead. But I don't how the puppet-master relation works.
Anyway, just saying I'm not labeling Cloud after what he "could have" been.

Cloud does indeed become more powerful later in the story. But it's a change that's unlike anything Zidane or Squall go through. Jenova cells make the user stronger. But for a long time it had the opposite effect on Cloud because he was mentally weakened by it instead. Once he sorted out his memories and became himself again, Jenova and Sephiroth could no longer manipulate him.

And I know what you mean about Zidane, it's just that as you said, it's not shown. We can asume that he's a good fighter, but because it's not shown you could also assume that he is just a bandit with moderate fighting skills. That would explain why he is never shown fighting.
Cloud and Squall are already confirmed as very good fighters.
How much damage Zidane can endure is also a not shown. Cloud and Squall both survived a leathal piercing attack. And Cloud is very fast in Advent Children.

Well they were obviously escaping the castle, and most likely didn't head back again because it was all collapsing. And if for some odd reason they did, it would likely have showed them in the FMV being near the blast for drammatic effect, like it did the first time.
I'll have to read the script later, because I want to know what happened. But if they were in the blast it would surely be in the script, and from what I recall it wasn't.

They did not escape. We see them talking at the VERY TOP of the castle. Zidane says "let's get out of here!" and they dash into the castle. Immediately after this, we see the scene dipicting the Invincible wiping out the castle and most of Alexandria. Blanks says "it took forever to find you guys." So, they didn't escape anything. They were inside the castle when it got hit by the Invincible.



Zidane acquires his power as he grows. He does not need to "seek it." It simply comes to him as he ages and matures. As Garland said, Zidane would have grown old enough very soon to surpass Kuja. It has nothing to do with wanting to obtain it.




What I said was



So, I was basically showing that both of them, when comparing solely on in-game feats, were fully bound to gravity. Cloud fell down when he was unsupported and never once jumped several fet in the air. It was just added crappy flash for the movie to make it look better than it was.



Cloud was pulled up to that position. He was not doing it on his own. And didn't we discuss the whole Jenova thing enough for you to know that the Sephiroth we see in the game is never Sephiroth? The Sephiroth in teh game is either purely an astral projection or Jenova's body or a clone. And Sephiroth at this point is far and above any regular human.



No. Cloud just ran up and stabbed him.

(The guard dashes up the stairs to where Zack lies atop the pod. He grabs
Zack's sword and, laying it across his back, dashes up the stairs. Inside
Jenova's room, he rushes up to Sephiroth. Sephiroth turns just in time to
stabbed through the stomach by the guard.)

Of course, the guard was Cloud. This is when he finds his real memory in the Lifestream and before he makes the dramatic part where he takes off his helmet.



But, as the game makers know more than you, and they had Kuja cast that form of magic, I will say they're right and that it is stronger than other magic spells. If anyone could do it, then it would mean zero. But, not just anyone could do it. Which you are basically claiming with "any spell" could cause the damage Kuja caused with his Ultima.



Replay the game and fight Kuja or Trance Kuja. Ultima is a giant spell that is an eruption of energy in many bolts.It circles his body and then itnot eh air and explodes and cascades down in a barrage of energy bolts on the enemy. When he uses Ultima in Terra, it shows energy bursting off all sides of his body and flying in all directions.



Fighting and beating Amarant, who has literally been fighting all his life (first memory was of a guy he had to fight) as well as the Black Waltz #1 who could summon ice demons and cause blizzards. All of this own his own. Who has Squall fought on his own? Seifer? Yay.....



Fanservice: term for the inclusion and/or overuse of certain story elements that aren't needed for the advancement of the story. Usually referring to sexual contents like panties, glimpses of nudity and so on, but can also be used for other elements, such as violence.

FFIX was a tribute to the older FFs but it was not made simply to leech more money out of an unintelligent people who like FFVII as AC, doC, BC, CC, the books, the UOG and every other piece of worthless crap that comprises the FFVII Compilation.

They go into the castle? Are you sure about that? I want to see that scene. I don't remember anything other than the FMV's I've seen recently.
But Zidane and the others still couldn't have got hit by that beam regardless, so I wonder where they went. It looks like it passed right through the castle. But perhaps they went to the lower levels or sommething. I read the script and they say that none of the others got hurt, only Zidane did because of the stunt he pulled. Zidane was with the others trying to save them. Given the radius of the blast and the explosion, he couldn't save them and be the only one to get hit. Or get hit period. That thing desintigrated the whole town. Except get hit by debris of course.


I quoted what Flame told me, since I don't remember this part either.


Cloud can't jump while in midair. If he falls he falls. He did so in AC as well and was forced to use his sword to prevent him from falling further down the Shinra building.


The Sephiroth clones looked like they could fly on their own will, not like they were dragged somewhere, so it could be the same for Cloud when he gave into his Jenova cells fully. But either way this still means that the game is flexible on gravity. So is FF9 if it allows Kuja to fly and Freya to jump high. FMV movies though weren't restricted by game mechanics, which is why we see Zidane run faster in the FMV's than he does in game, and Vincent pulls off those fancy moves and jumps high in Dirge of Cerberus FMV's.
Advent Children is canon though, what else can I say?


I meant the second time.

Zack: Cloud... Kill Sephiroth... *Cloud goes after Sephiroth.*
Cloud: Sephiroth!! *Sephiroth plunges his sword into Cloud’s right chest.*
Sephiroth: Don't... push... your luck... *Cloud pulls out Sephiroth sword from his wound and throws him into the chasm.*
Sephiroth: ...It can't be! *Sephiroth fell into the reactor and dies at the scene.*

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. It's just to show that Cloud didn't stand still like Zidane did with teh Black Waltz.


But what do you mean by "they are right"? They didn't even say anything. If you mean that Ultima is stronger than fire, then yes, I never said otherwise. A flamethrower is more powerful than a match, but if I use the match many times I can achieve the same damage.
Kuja just reached the peak of his powers, so naturally he would blast away as much as he can. Would you rather use lower level spells or higher level spells?
Anyway, the point again is that it only did so much damage because the spell was cast at so many targets.


Thats how I remembered it, and still completely different situations. Lets say that Ultima, upon contact does 100 points in damage. When he cast out a few Ultima beams on Terra, lets say 3, they each hit 3 targets each. That's done a total of 900 points in damage. He keeps this up, destroying pillar after pillar and god knows what else, and the total amount of damage and destruction rises with each time the spell is cast. And to detstroy a planet you have to achieve a large amount of destruction.
It's quite different from casting the spell only once in a battle, that crashes to the ground and then theres no more. Not to mention it was cast by Kuja and not Trance Kuja.

So I'm just saying they got hit by a wave, not "the Tsunami".


Zidane took them on solo? Well if that's the case then that is at least something that shows that Zidane can fight, if he fought Amarant and won. I didn't know of any examples before.
But Squall is an elite soldier who made it into SEED. And Seifer is quite a skilled fighter as well. He would have gotten into SEED if he didn't disobey orders.

The Crystal? It played a role in the story but wasn't AT ALL needed. It was an indication of when Terra could take over Gaia or something and anything could have been used... OR they could have gotten rid of those story elements and there wouldn't be a huge difference. They were made to look important but played a very small significance.


But Garland doesn't say that he will obtain it naturally. Garland could have been saying that Zidane must reach a certain age before he could bestow the powers upon him. The only evidence we have in the game is that Zidane never does become more powerful that Kuja. Maybe it happens after the game but then thats just speculation. This is a character battle... who would win in a fight between three fictional characters. What may or may not happen to them is irrelevant. That's like saying that having a battle against a baby Ryu Vs an Adult Ken will result in Ryu winning because one day he will grow up to be really strong.


No you are quite right... Climhazzard has him stuck on the floor the whole time... and of course you have managed to ignore once again the cloud flys up and stands on the frikkin ceiling the first time you go to the northern crater.


Oh how that made me giggle. This just proves once again how you get your oppinion mixed up with fact... Of course, when they made FFIX and put the crystal on the front with the title they wern't thinking "The fanboys of the first set of FF games will eat this up".

So much more to say... but the combination of having to live my life and the fact that I'm really not too bothered either way means they'll have to wait for another day...

Flame, when Cloud was upside down on the ceiling in Northern Crater, was that his own doing, or Sephiroth's/Jenova's?

Also, I did not see Cloud float in the game as he did in AC, now I thought that Hiku said it was because of his cells, but that does not make sense to me, considering the rest of the cast floats just as much as Cloud does.

Anyway, about the Zidane scene at Alexandria, I don't know where they were and how much time there was when he was hanging on the rope with Eiko and Garnet and the blast of the Invincible.
As far as I know the rope is attached to the castle, so that would mean they will get back to the castle, but where were they then?

Garland: "His soul is not eternal... I was going to create you next,
after all."

Zidane: "You mean you won't need Kuja's soul once I grow stronger than
him?"

Garland: "Precisely... Soon, that time will come."

So, his power boost as Garland claims to be must be starting at the beginning of the end, when Zidane descends to Kuja dodging the roots of the Iifa Tree and falling on the ground and after that taking a hit by the roots themselves, well I assume he did.

His battle skills are never shown in FMV, but that does not mean he will be taken down easily.
It is like having a famous fighter on one side, one you know the capabilities and a fighter you only have heard about his abilities, but were never demonstrated.

I am not saying he would win, nor that I care, but to discard him is a bit too easy.

The Sephiroth puppets/clones can fly at will, so I don't see why we should assume otherwise for Cloud. In that state he was the same as them. He only wanted to follow the calling of Jenova and Sephiroths orders. But the question wasn't who was responsible for it, the question was if FF7 and FF9 allows for anti gravity events, and they both do, regardless of the circumstances behind the events.


When did he float in AC? Do you mean airtime battles? They weren't floating, even though it looks like it. There was always some sort of physical contact pushing them in different directions.
The only ones who can actually fly are those who are in direct contact with Jenova. Or so it seems.


Why must it start there?
And to grow stronger you usually need to train. A DBZ reference, but none the less. When Raditz first came to Earth he took down Goku in one kick. He said no matter how much potential he had, he had not grown at the rate he normally would have if he stayed in space where gravity is heavier, and combat is everyday life.

So, in AC Cloud is not floating, but in VII he is? And yes, those airtime battles are retardly long, it is more floating/hovering than jumping up and down.

Also, I have no idea why or when Zidane is growing more powerful than Kuja, but at the end he showed increased capabilities, hence I am thinking it started there. I also believe that the gravity issue is fairly diffirent in FF VII compared to IX, you never saw those huge airtime thingies in IX.

Also, Zidane was not human, he had humanly emotions and a soul, but that was him human part, other then that he was an alien, he was never born the natural way, so it would make sense if he could unleash his full potential after he reached a certain age or whatever.
Same with the Super Saiyan thing, normally a Saiyin could never reach that power.

Well Sayans train to become stronger. At least compared to other sayans as his brother showed him. Goku first reached SSj as an adult, while his son and Vegeta's son could reach SSJ as children because of their more intense training. Speaking of that, off topic but I now remember I saw a lot of DBZ parallels in FF9. Zidane is an alien with a tail, who was sent to teh planter to become its destroyer. But he doesn't remember his real mission. Same thing for Goku. They both have their brother come visit them after some time has passed. And SSJ4 looks a lot like Trance.

Sadistic angle, I stopped reading what you posted on page 2, Seriously, No one can change opinions, that, and your just spurting BS, with no given proof, and that athrun has dispelled your BS.

A comparison of different people in different time periods, in a history debate I had, my group had to debate that President lincoln wasn't the best president, our only idea, How can you compare all the presidents, and pick just one to be the best, when everyone of them, grew up in different times, and even though at the time, some presidents did some bad things, without it, where would we be today?

Point of this, You CANNOT say Zishit was better then cloud or squall, and have it be proven true. Unless all three were in the Same time period, dealing with the same stresses, bosses, ect. and put to fight each other. It is Impossible to pick one, and have it be TRUE. Because unless you can convince EVERYONE on the forum that Zidane is better with given proof, of the three in the situation i have explained, you just have an Opinion, and no one cares about those

Well I think he always meant that it's just his oppinion though. But at least he showed that Zidane at least can fight, since he beat Amarant. So there's at least something to argue for the idea that Zidane can match two other people who are already proven to be very skilled fighters.
But as you said, different worlds, different rules.

Okay I just did the last boss of Final Fantasy IX and realised something, You say that Zidane survived and ooberdooberawesomefantasticpwnall blast which he survived easily? Nonono my good friend they were on the brink of death, they were in the final dimension according to Necron, they just fought him and earned their lives back, but technically you could say they died. As for Squall getting ice through his chest well He would have been knocked out obviously, that peice of ice was huge. But he didn't go off to some final dimension, or as you'd call it, the waiting room for heaven or hell. He just got knocked out and woke up completely okay, I don't know why but he did.

First of all, if you REALLY think about it, gravity doesn't really matter in Finala Fanatasy, its all good in the end because its entertainment and it IS A Fantasy worls that each of these characters live in after all.

As fir Zidane, you gotta consider that he is a thief, and thieves aren't all that durable in defense and endurance, so that would mean that Zidane would have to rely HEAVILY on dodging Cloud's and Squall's Swordswings because if he gets nailed by a couple of those, than he'll loose stamina pretty quickly.
But thus is disregarding his whole experience with takin a direct shot from the Invincible

But overall, I say Cloud, Squall, and Zidane are evenly matched at most because if their limit breaks and the rate at which their abilities and powers improve how strong they develop in their fighting abilities by the end of their journies. Cloud becomes quite strong, for example, Advent Chilldren, whre Squall was able to defeat the final witch, Ultimicia I think her name was, I don't exactly remember because it's been a while.

But I digress, Zidane has also become quite skilled after defeating Kuja

I never really thought of Zidane as powerful, and compared to Squall and Cloud I'd say he gets beat down. Bad.

I always hated Zidane though, and for such a shallow reason: His character art.

The way he LOOKS just makes me disagree with everythiung about him. It's like looking at a scrawny short white kid and saying that he's one of the best football (american) players. The first impression just DOESN'T fit. Like, I can't take him seriously as a hero if he doesn't look like one.

He just looks funny, the outfit is weird, he's a younger teen, but just doesn't carry that swagger of a hero or someone who is important/powerful. Like Larsa from FF12 pulled it off, Hugo from Suikoden pulled it off, Ramza from FFT pulled it off, and even the SeeDs pulled it off (They're all only 17 really).

So I mean its not like kids/teens cant be intimidating or heroic looking, but Zidane just doesn't do it unfortunately....

Amen.

Off topic I know...

Why you have to use my topic?????

And why the hell you think Zidane is superior over Cloud and Squall? Exspcially Cloud in that matter??????

Meh. I'll just say that Squall and Cloud are boring as #####, whereas Zidane had some sort of character to him. Squall had his moments, Cloud was inconsistent as hell (as well as blander than a flat soda in AC, like the whole movie) in his game. Zidane was likable from the start, had an interesting history, and his freakout on Terra only added to it because you know you didn't see it coming, whereas with Gruff Mercenary Main Character Types you see an emo moment coming like a locomotive.

;

God damn it, I just don't see what's so awesome about Cloud/Squall.



Because the game said he was specifically bred to kill everyone on the planet so that the Iifa tree can channel their souls to Terra and therefore restore his planet?