I posted this here because it's "serious discussion" and that sort of thing should be posted here, given the article in the other topic I posted a little earlier, it gave me an idea for this topic. Not so much here, but on other sites I go to, you have people who say how much better we'd all be if everyone abandoned religion and just (insert personal philosophy with a good result.) I won't say religion is innocent, but I would think that it's elimination probably wouldn't solve anything. People would still steal, kill, rape, etc. I have more, but I want to see what you all think first. I'm not trying to flame atheism or universalism so don't go too far on flaming religious adherents.

First of all, I don't think it's possible to eliminate religion. There will always be people, for better or worse, who will stick to their beliefs regardless of what the law says. That said, I do believe the elimination of religion would be bad on an individual basis, simply because I do believe in heaven and hell and that those without religion (or with the "wrong" religion, although I hate to use that word to describe it) will go to hell. I don't like the prospect of anyone going to hell, not even the people I detest, so in a perfect world, we'd all believe in Jesus. But we don't, and there isn't terribly much I, as a Christian, can do about that except pray about it, and take the ####### people are going to throw at me for being Christian as soon as I hit the "Add Reply" button here.

*crosses fingers and hits button*

I do agree with the idea that religion will never be completely eliminated. I know I will never give up my newly found religion of Christianity (been a year and a half), and I will hopefully pass it down onto my children. However, I do believe religion has been declining, and all people really have to fall back on are politicians and or the Mel Gibson's of the world, with their Passion of the Christ influences (amazing). All I am saying is that people are losing their faith, and this is true. I realize people are trying to remove religions and such, but the public fights back.

This topic actually reminded me of a very interesting and provoking political argument that I thought I would share. I found it absolutely awesome.
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http://www.dysan.net/Weird/show/689.html

"The Law is the Law

So if the US government determines that it is against the law for the words "under God" to be on our money, then, so be it.

And if that same government decides that the 'Ten Commandments' are not to be used in or on a government installation, then, so be it.

I say, "so be it," because I would like to be a law abiding US citizen.

I say, "so be it," because I would like to think that smarter people than I are in positions to make good decisions. I would like to think that those people have the American publics best interests at heart.

BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE I'D LIKE?

Since we can't pray to God, can't Trust in God and cannot post His Commandments in Government buildings, I don't believe the Government and its employees should participate in the Easter and Christmas celebrations which honor the God that our government is eliminating from many facets of American life.

I'd like my mail delivered on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter. After all, it's just another day.

I'd like the 'U.S. Supreme Court to be in session on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter as well as Sundays.' After all, it's just another day.

I'd like the Senate and the House of Representatives to not have to worry about getting home for the 'Christmas Break.' After all it's just another day.

I'm thinking that a lot of my taxpayer dollars could be saved, if all government offices & services would work on Christmas, Good Friday & Easter. It shouldn't cost any overtime since those would be just like any other day of the week to a government that is trying to be 'politically correct.'"

Erm, Hound ur quote/piece is emotionally convincing, but that's definitely not true. There's nothing stated in law that they cannot work during those times, but separation of church and state allows their beliefs to count for something.

I've had teachers miss school for Jewish new year (rosh hashanah is it?), but they miss it not because its a national holiday, but because of their own beliefs. It's the same case here, there's nothing stopping them from working legally or lawfull, but it's their own personal decision to celebrate their belief.

I don't think that religion is necessarily a bad thing...the only thing that annoys me regarding it is when people try to force their beliefs on me. However, I hate having beliefs forced on me regardless of if they are religious or not.

I think that people should be able to believe what they want to believe, but shouldn't try to force it on others. That said, I don't think I could function without the belief of heaven and hell. I want to believe that I go somewhere when I die and that I can be reunited with my friends and family. Plus, I just can't imagine simply not existing, it's impossible to fathom ^^;


That's just my opinion though =)

If Religion was somehow eliminated, it would be bad. People can say their little rants about how religion is evil, but most religions encourage people to not judge, to help people, to show respect, just to be good people all around.

which is exactly what they don't do.

I don't really care about this topic. There is a point in time where man will have to grow out of religion to be able to advance. I mean, get to a point where religion is a "nice thing to have" and not "necessary". That time is not now.

Well, I happen to know several people from different religious backgrounds, and I can assure you they don't all do that. Plus they tend to dislike the ones who just annoy everyone anyways.

I'm Arashika in this! Plus if everyone respected everyone's religion this world we live in would be alot nicer!

The folly of man is their ability to think far more deeply than any other species on the planet... Leaving lots of room for wonder, and lots of room to create nonsense.

I don't really feel like getting into some large debate or even really fully explaining my reasons. I think all religion should be abolished. I think it's a joke, and a very silly thing for any person to cling on to. Just reading into, or observing many practices in any religion is enough to make me wonder if the crazy stoner metalhead is really the crazy one after all.

What does it all offer? You pray in one religion to show your worship, you pierce your mouth in another to show devotion, all to a god(s) that supposedly will be pleased with you if you do so and will take you in and shelter you in some amazing land after our bodies pass on in this world.

It's all nonsense. All of it. While many religions can help instill some moral principle in a lot of people, it can also aid misunderstanding and intolerance as well. Also being a good person to others and following a decent moral code isn't something a religion should really be responsible for teaching someone anyway.

I don't know. My argument is flawed, unfinished, and will probably remain so. Religion is nonsense. To think otherwise is to believe the impossible, the fanatical, Alice In #####' Wonderland, man.

But I do respect the rights of others to follow and believe what they will. Even if I believe it to be harmful nonsense. I believe the right path to follow is REALITY. You don't need some book or spiritual advisement to learn, be, and teach how to be a good person and how to be a decent member of a society.

I forgot I was stealing, killing, and raping because I wasn't a religious person. What a silly thing to say, Rune. And don't say I only follow those moral codes because it's the law founded by our countrymen who followed Christianity and by passing down these codes it's been passed down through generations of people to me. I was taught to be a decent person by my mother, a non religious person.

I mean really to say there would be hell on earth without religion is utterly silly. Which is basically what you're stating. In many religions, especially in people in less fortunate and very ancient indigenous places, condone killing of others based upon their crimes against their society or even religion. So saying that religion provides a moral backbone that makes good sense is quite silly, Christianity is not the only religion, and in many other religions intolerance, murder, selfishness, promiscuity, and many other things are accepted and embraced.

There's really a million more things I could discuss regarding the negative impact of religion, and how it's just... I don't know... I just think about it and it makes me laugh what people believe... I'm sorry if that's rude or inconsiderate, but if I told you I believe I could #### lightning it wouldn't be any less ridiculous than what many other people believe in the religions that they follow.

But again. People are free to believe what they want so long as they keep it to themselves. Anyway, I honestly don't think this is really a good topic for me... It'd be much easier to have a face to face discussion as I feel there's so many more points I should emphasize on and possibly even better explanation for what I'm trying to say... But that's text for you.

Good topic... But I'm done with it. I sense a great disturbance in the force in the future of this thread.

I agree with TED, I find religion to be rather pointless. What good has false hope ever done? All religion tends to lead to is pain. Crusades, wars, witch hunts, the current battles in Israel, etc.

In context, religion is a good thing. However, in context, communism also works, but we don't see that being used way too often. People try to slow down science and fact based on their own immature beliefs that there is some magical creature flying around condemning people who don't worship him to a fiery hell. Well you know what? Go ahead and believe that we'll all burn in hell: WE DON'T F*CKING CARE! I'd rather chill with good ol' Satan than live in a dictatorship where I'm forced to pray and worship. Go ahead and do whatever the hell you want, I'd rather do things my way.

That's my only problem with religion, the fact that it tries to "save everyone" in its own stupid way, pretending to think of the "good of mankind" but just complying to their own selfish rules. The gay community, for example: Many people are condemning them as sinners, and saying that their god is angry with them. They try to get us to think of them as subhuman so we don't turn gay, or whatever damn excuse they tend to use.

That leads to another problem, how they tend to think of their opinions as fact. You've seen science condemned many times; search for the Galileo Affair. Anyone read Inherit The Wind, or the actual trial it detailed, about the whole uprise against evolution? Keep your beliefs to yourself and let the rest of humanity flourish. I honestly couldn't care less about what you believe in, as long as you don't try to force it onto society or me.

However, I find some arguments against religion itself stupid. Stuff like removing "Under God" from the Pledge or money. It just seems like a waste of time and money, and too much paperwork. Just let everything be the way it is; Maybe if we leave them alone, they'll follow suit >.>

I don’t really think religion can fully be eliminated, as there are always those who will cling to their beliefs. I myself am Roman Catholic, and while I don’t necessarily agree with what other people who claim to be of the same faith do (for various reasons), I doubt I’d change beliefs or get rid of it even if someone told me I had to. I dunno. It’s just something I believe and would be hard for me to explain.

So yeah, religion probably would never be eliminated. Everybody thinks their religion is right (myself included, obviously), and the way they go about being a member of that faith will differ. Maybe they’ll take it to the extremes and try to force it upon someone else, or maybe they’ll take it the wrong way entirely and give that faith a bad name.

But, despite that, there is either going to be only one true religion, or religion itself will turn out to be bogus. It’s either one or none, but you’ll never truly eliminate them all. People have their personal reasons for believing or not believing, and it’s extremely hard to make people change their mindset either which way just because of a certain emotion towards something or whatever it happens to be.

But yeah, I don’t want to ramble on here, so I’ll just keep it brief. Religion will never be eliminated regardless of how silly one faith might be, or how annoying the people of another come off as. It will always exist in some form or other. That’s just my opinion, and I could probably explain it better, but as I said, I want to keep this short and not ramble =)

im all about people having things to give them something to do like church. but some people take it too far. i call them hyp-i-christians. they hide behind the bible and use that as an exuse to justify their actions. my boss says he does things in the name of god. i dont believe that. he does things because he wants to, not because god told him to.

First of all, It's not the religion that is bad, it's the people that runs the religion.

It's like politic, Politic in it self isn't bad it's just that people that is supposed to run it isn't always (more like never) free from personal goals that affect their jobs!

Religion can acctually do alot of good, even if it's false hope. like people may find comfort in religion after someone loved near them died. it is a way to lie to yourself (seeing from someone who doesn't belive) but if it can ease on your pain, then it is good.
People may have alot of questions and find comfort in religion.

this is the good part about religion, but then thers the bad part!

People who is willing to take advantage of these people that want to find comfort, taking them in their arms... and their money!

I belive every human have the right to belive in whatever religion they want to belive in, BUT, aslong as they never force their belives on other or hurt other becouse of their belifes.

so what's need to be eliminated isn't religion, it's Humans

you're right its the people in religion that f*** it up. but the followers know this and they still follow false prophets. religion is about money like everything else. thats the bottom line, money. yeah i know its about hope, but hope comes at a price along with everything else in the world. so pile sand up your butts televangilists. give the money back.

Do you have any clue how little money people make off religion? I mean it's ##### that they do, but it's really a minuscule amount.

o_O; Money? I don't think so. At least not for the laity. Given money's control on the world, it's hard to not be involved with it, but to say the it's all about money is to be blind...

they who fall into "bad religion" and are really being used, are mostly desperate after help and just had the bad luck of getting into the arms of bad people!

Most religions are on the grayscale, neither good or bad, there's always someone that's trying to gain something for personal resons!

Note: by religion, I mean the people that run it, in the specific local area!

You know their hearts and minds? o_O?

do you ever wonder how they build those multi-million dollar churches? these people build state-of-the-art buildings, it isnt cheap. and yes they pay their sub-contractors. its not built for free. so there is money involved, and a lot of it. i have built a few churches so i can tell you what goes on behind the scenes.

Yeah, they have collections for donations to keep the Churches maintained. So yeah, they ask for money, but it’s not like indulgences or anything where they tell us that Grandma’s soul *will* go to Heaven if only we give them our money and that they...just want the money (there’s a *reason* indulgences aren’t allowed anymore >.>).

It’s not like they roll in cash or anything, otherwise they wouldn’t need to ask. It’s like any other organization asking for a fundraiser, right? Just because a Church asks for money doesn’t mean they’re trying to steal the money from people. It’s because we (the attendees) support their cause and want to *keep* the Churches up to date. I mean, yeah, you’re going to have a few people here and there who’ve got messed up priorities. But they’re human like anyone else and are prone to those types of mistakes. You have to sort of be born outside the human race to avoid them.

So my point is, Churches don’t (or at least aren’t supposed to, and the ones near me sure don’t) try and get money just for their own personal means. It’s to help keep the Church running (and if they get enough donations maybe even spice it up a bit). The main focus isn’t on money, but to live in this world you need to have money to keep yourself sustained, so the Churches need to ask for money from the parishioners to help keep the Church said parishioner attends functioning.

I would stay out of this conversation because it’s not hard to see where this could end up, but I just had to say this because from my view people seem to be under the impression that because a Church asks for money like any other organization (or whatever you choose to call it...) just to keep the buildings being made for people to attend Mass or whatever (or maintained at least), that the Church (group, not building) is stealing away people’s money and that money is the sole base of the foundation. I assure you, it’s not, but if it is somewhere, money shouldn’t be the main focus, or at least not even a focus at all. It’s about the faith, that’s why the Church is here, regardless if you believe in the Faith or not.


-quietly leaves this thread and probably won’t come back unless I feel like going into what could be a rather big quote war again. lol. >.>-

aah, my last post is porbably something that goes for about 50% of the cases!

maybe i cant see it from one of the churchgoers because i never go. i believe in a higher power, just the same as any religious person. but i do not worship, i feel that there is no need worship them because they are all-seeing. so they know that we acknowledge them. and i feel that is enough.

Religion is a tricky subject... you never know who you are going to offend... which is why I was hesitant at first to post here. lol

I will say that religion helps us in many ways. Most religions define right and wrong, and it gives us purpose. It also gives life and death more meaning to people who fear the unknown. I definitely feel that it should not be eliminated. Our beliefs are important and should never be banned.

It's people who constantly ram their beliefs down everyone else's throat... that's the real problem

Yes, like I've said a hundred times before(and a few on these forums), religion is a great thing, but organized religion is a horrible idea. Believing in salvation and a better life after this one is fantastic, and I applaud those who can uphold such strong ideals and morals that are the foundations of their various religions, since I bloody well can't.

I've been a churchie, both because it was enforced(during private school) and because I was looking for something to fill a particular emptiness in my life. I stopped because I realized I had other things to worry about that the things that couldn't be logically explained. I accept that there are things that I, and probably anybody, will not understand, things I will not witness, and things I have done that would bear ill on any post-life judgement for me. If Heaven exists, I hope I get there. If it does and I don't, then I musta screwed up.

If it doesn't exist, I won't know the difference. I'll say my prayers when I need to say them, because God can damn well come talk to me if he's really craving to have me speak to him.

Long story short?

tl;dr

yall can have religion. i dont want it. ive done fine without it.

Guess what, religion won't save you. But then again, most people cannot see past religion. A problem with people who observe the Christian church is that they think that it's Christians you should look to for your faith. Nobody there claims to be perfect. (If they do, I'd question their mental state.) People should look to God for their faith. You know what's funny, that "true religion" is noted in the bible as "caring for the least of these, orphans and widows" I do just fine without what our society has made religion, but what would I be without my savior?

what would you be? the same. and no religion wont save you. nothing will. we are all doomed. the only things in life that are certain are death and taxes.

I disagree. There is a way. I'm a skeptic of this "abyss of non existence" atheists adhere to. Funny, me, a theist, a skeptic of atheistic doctrines.

I have to agree, at least with the death and taxes part. Which, I might add, is entirely unfortunate.

well if there is a way let me know when you find out and i'll change my tune. not trying to be an ass or anything. but im sticking to my guns on this one.

The "Dogma" approach I see, I'll agree that religion in itself isn't really a bad idea. I mean cuz that's just what it is a good idea to better people lives. However it's when you start organizing is when you get the clusterfuck you see with so many religions. You'll get the people who could care less about their religion, and those care too much and become radicals of their faith. Though I won't adhere to that being a complete devout follower of a so and so's faith would get you into salvation, mainly because there a many religions out there and there's a possibility that everyone could be wrong. Me? I'm a nontheist, don't mistaken me for an atheist cuz I'm not and don't mistaken me for an agnostic because I do recognize in a higher power. Who that higher power may be and if he/she/it is involved with y life is completely left up to debate, and quite frankly there are other things that I need to worry about. Like applying to colleges, getting a job, making a decent living for myself.
As for people dumping religion to the gutters? Most likely won't happen. Religion has been essential to mankind throughout the better part of our history. It shapes our cultures and even provides stability to the society it exists within. I do agree that there are things that I "frown" upon to what major religions do for the sake of their "God", but hey that's what happens when you mix fanatics with religion. Is it religion's fault for doing this to them? No, it's the fanatics fault, they should realize that not everything in their holy scriptures is true. Most of it is exaggerations just show how "divine" their central figures are in their religion. In the end, the only way to solve the problem for religions is for more reform, and "God" only knows when those reforms may come.

Let's put it this way: religion/faith is a personal thing and it should stay in the confines of one's personal quarters. Religion can't be eliminated, that's true. But why is it true? It's true because people are scared and weak, in need of divine protection even if it is bogus and even if they don't know it.

People are going to the bathroom to urinate, in some countries they can't smoke in public places, they can't leave their excrement on the sidewalk. You figure it out people.

Subjective, adhering to atheism or dismissing theism doesn't make anyone weak or scared. History proves that, why else would people oppose their governments.

because anarchy is alive and well in everyone.

Religion is a double-edge sword. On the one hand, it's a good thing because people really need to believe that there's life after death; it's a necessary comfort. But on the other hand, religion can cause so many problems, from discrimination to conflct in our government ( I live in the US). So I think it can go both ways.

Ask a religion devout if he/she could bare "living without god".

Depends on your kind of anarchy. Are you an "angsty teen" kind of anarchist, that just hates rules/order? Or are you an anarcho-capitalist, mutualist, syndicalist, communist, or a combination of several? Anarchy literally means the absence of a STATE or GOVERNMENT, not the absence of law and not the absence of order.

I subscribe to a view that is close to anarcho-capitalism, but is actually minarcho-capitalism (minarchy + capitalism). More or less the extreme fringe of what many would call "libertarianism." But that is beside the point. My main point is that anarchy is not necessarily the absence of rules or the absence of order - thus it is not necessarily just pure "chaos." Rather, they just argue that there are fundamental laws which cannot be violated, and that if they are, deserve punishment. The argument anarchists give (generally), is that the state is a monopolistic mechanism, and that it therefore preemptively punishes people when they have not violated the fundamental laws, and that as a result, are illegitimate and inherently unjust.

I do not necessarily subscribe to that view (my view is very close, though I do allow for the existence of a minimalist government), but that is what a large portion of anarchists argue.

Just thought I'd clarify the record here a little bit.

im not saying that all people are anarchists. i know that there is not one person alive the does not resent the government for some reason. that is a slight reason that can technically be defined as anarchy right?

I beleived in God blindy and he evetually came to me and I saw him in my spirit litterarly, its not a matter of hi God if youre real show yourself to me ( that degrdes God and puts him down to human lvl cause people want proff and to control) but rather. Hi God what can I do to show you I trust you weather I know youre there or not. Blessed are those who saw me and believed but blessed are those even more who didnt see me and beleived. Jesus came to earth and was Gods word became flesh as the son of God, his own nation didnt welcome him but some beleived and they were given the right to be sons of God. Somewhere in the new testament the bible says that there was a rich man who died and went to hell and he said please warn my brothers and my Father so they wont come to this place the rich man said to Moses. Moses said they have what Moses and prophets wrote if they dont listen to that they wont listen to a dead man that comes back from the dead. If God came to earth everyone would know there is a God and would convert if they wish out of the fact they see a God. satan saw God and served him in rithousness bible says, but he was also jelous as Jesus said and sat on Gods throne then was kicked out. God wants to see who will worship him even if they dont know if hes there or not out of faith. This is not about us, its about being humble and this being about him, note the fact I said humble as in humble to all.

the elmination of religion really would make no difference that I can see. Bad ##### will still go down without religion, people will find something else to hide behind and something else to live their life by. If its not religion, it will be something else...

I personally think eliminate it, get some people to start thinking outside the book.. but thats just me. but it will never be eliminated, it will always be there..

How pray tell do you suppose to DO that? And by what right do you force people to think in the way you want them to think? I'm fine with not liking religion, and choosing to be an athiest or an agnostic, or whatever you want to call yourself. I stop however, at trying to force those who ARE religious to do otherwise. Why violate their rights?

like i said, you cant stop religion, it wont ever happen. just me personally i dont see much point in religion so i wouldnt mind if it was say not around.. but i know that wont ever happen nor do i have a right to tell people what to believe in. Whatever helps you pass the time..

you cant stop religion. theres no way. like they said thats what gives some people hope. without hope the country is doomed

Can you not stop it because it is an unstoppable torrent of oppression against the mind, binding our wings with heavy chains? Or perhaps because it is a source of hope and is at it's strongest when you put that "torrent" against it? Given this thread was made for the purpose of spreading our "mental wings", I don't think religion prevents that. Though extremism and fanaticism may hinder one's thought process, but alas the definitions/interpretations of those words are subjective at most times.

you cant take away hope. it would be the downfall of the people, we would lose our monds with the thought that it will not get better. hope is what makes people get out of bed. hope makes the world work.

Why do you say that? I personally don't really believe in any supreme beings, although I'm not quite sure that they don't exist. I simply don't care. If there is a God up there, I'll probably get into heaven for being a decent person. If not, then who cares, it wouldn't have affected me anyhow.

I don't need any false hope to live through life. I do have hope. Hope that I'll get married some day, hope that I'll I get into University, hope that I graduate and get a good job, other realistic hopes. I have no need for false hope, no need to even care what happens after I die. Whatever happens will happen, what does it matter?

The world wouldn't "fall apart" as some say it would. The Ten Commandments? Most of those are general guidelines we set for ourselves, and are mostly present in laws. I'm not going to go around and kill people because I'm not governed by a religious doctrine that tells me not to, I have my own morals and values that in part coincide with different religious beliefs, but don't center on one of them.

Taking away religion wouldn't be taking away hope, just taking away false hope, something that can't be proven either way. However, I don't think that it would work anyhow. Too many people believe in it, and take it to heart. The extremists would find other reasons to be the insecure little freaks that they are, so there probably won't be much of a difference. Believe in what you want, just don't try to convert me. That's what I live by.

no conversion here. false hope is a bigger part of life than you think. just because you dont have it in your life, doesnt mean that others rely on it less than you do.

Can't be proven either way? Yet you call it false hope? Are you a seer? Could you imagine a world without it? Even if it were put the sword it'd linger. It's hard to define hope these days, given people's attitudes when people have it.

I say it as false hope because it CAN'T be proven. There are dozens, maybe hundreds of other religions, and they all say different things. Some have one God, some have many, some respect all living things as equal while some thing of themselves as higher, etc. Since there are so many to choose from, I see no real reason on picking one and staying with it, I'd rather live a good life without worrying about what will happen when I die.

That's why I believe it is false hope, because it's in a way comparable to a fairy tale in my opinion. Not that it's a false little story designed to entertain kids, but because I think it helps teach kids (and adults) better moral values, and shouldn't be held word for word. I don't even know what I'm talking about any more, to be honest. Leaving for now before I start rambling about nonsense.