Somehow people have decided that Rinoa is Ultimecia, and I do not see how.

1. If Ultimecia is Rinoa, how are they both using their powers in time compression? Not possible.
2. When someone is in time compression and come across a past version of themselves (i.e. Squall) one of them exists in time and not space, and cannot interact with anyone or anything with the exception of sorceresses, and Rinoa interacts with the party.

There are more, I will post them as they come up. Discuss.

It's easy to answer question 1. Time compression allows time to flow in a circle. If your remember the scenes before the ending movie, when you beat Ultemecia and Squall is lost he goes to see Edea. We see both himself as well as his younger version, and his younger version clearly acknowledges the older Squall. Not only that but Ultemecia comes in already defeated. We're in the "past" in this scene, so how can she exist in the future if she already was defeated in the past? It's just cause time flows in a circle.

And where'd you get your second point from??


I actually bought into the Rinoa is Ultemecia theory until recently. And the argument for it is quite valid actually. Squall is Rinoa's knight, right? Well, it was assumed that something bad happens to Squall (aka he dies). Well, Rinoa no longer has her knight to control her powers, so she becomes evil and possessed like Adel and Ultemecia. She becoems so enraged that she's lost her love, that she created her Guardian Force Greiver.

This has significance, because the Guardian Force is named whatever Squall names his ring/insignia. If you named it "Pookie" earlier in the game, then the Guardian Force in the end would be named "Pookie" too. So there's clearly some relation there.

So what was assumed, is that Rinoa creates Greiver as her Guardian Force to remind her of Squall. And then she creates the Time Compressed world so she can travel time and try to get Squall back.

The only thing that raises a question to this theory is that when Squall and the party fight her at the end of the game, why would she kill the one she was looking for? But it was just assumed that her sorceress powers were just completely out of control at that point.

So, I actually DID believe this for quite a while as on of those things that's left unsaid, but kind of assumed (Like Laguna being Squall's father. It never explicitly says it, but according to the timelines, the similarities, the quotes by Kiros and Ward, and the Moombas sensing Laguna's blood in Squall, it's an assumd fact that Laguna's Squall's father). People saw this, and then thought that even tho this was never stated andi ts true, that the Rinoa theory could be true too.


The only thing that makes me NOT believe this theory, is that Square put out its FF8 Compendium guide and said that Rinoa is in fact, NOT ultemecia. And the Compendium is considered storyline fact in all FFs. so i just let the theory die there, but I really enjoyed that theory. It gave more purpose to Squall's job as a Knight, and gave Ultemecia the background that she was missing.

uhm, Seifer is Ultimecias knight bud. And can you send me a link to somewhere I can download/read that compendium? I guess there's no point in debating it if it was already stated that it is false.

Edit, I just found something that may explain Griever. Questionably legitimate, but sounds solid.

I also believe such theory about Griever! But what makes me question is if Squall imagined Griever as the strongest GF why didn't he hesitated or got afraid when he saw it? If he truly thought that Griever was the strongest GF why didn't he show some feelings about it? He just fights it!

Well one of the many ways that Squall progresses as a character is in the fact that he becomes more and more of a "leader" which kinda includes staying calm and being brave.

Compendium? I haven't seen that, but if it's true I'd like to read it. If it really says so then it's probably true. These plot holes don't put a hindrance to the story, unlike the ones in FF7. It could work either way.

But anyway, I wish I remembered everything about this Rinoa theory, because I remember there were a lot of interesting points. I don't even remember the significance of her castle being anchored to the orphanage any more.

Some other facts that hint of the relation:

-Rinoa and Ultimecia have a very similar apperance. (Kinda not really, but what's more important is that in the ending movie when Rinoa is in the ballroom, her face flickers with Ultemecia's face. Which first started the theories)
-Ultimecia has Rinoa's angel wings. Although anyone can obtain magic wings my useing float. Rinoa is the only one capable of obtaining true wings such as the ones Ultimecia has. Ultemecia's are black and Rinoa's are white, so they're just to supposed to symbolize how she became evil
-Ultimecia has Greiver, wich she couldn't have without a connection to Squall.
-Ultimecia's castel was located at the very same place where Squall and Rinoa promised each other that they would be.

And a reason why Ultemecia/Rinoa would still be killing Squall when he was the one they were s earching for, is that with greiver equipped as her GF, it affected her memory for so long that all sheh ad left was her sorceress powers.

and you'll have to excuse my mistake earlier, it WASNT the compendium that stated this, it was Square outright evidentially.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fj2WAkSLzc

An interesting video. Doesn't prove anything, but it IS interesting. Rinoa's smiling too so the eyes are shaped a little different, but thats pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSvCQl2GZ1M

Doesn't say really anything, but also interesting.

hum, by seeing and reading your theories, it may sound somewhat logical...

...BUT

When checking the complete scenes and thinking again, I see numerous holes in the theories!

1:
they are no more similar then Rinoa-Selphie-quistis-Ultimecia are to each others, and beside, quistis lips are way more similar to Ultimecia in shape then rinoa's

2:
if he is refering to the "flowing shapes" over rinoas face, that they are supposed to look like Ultimecias shape of face, there is no way they are, I even stared and focused and not focus but there is no way similar in shape!

and the flash that show Ultimecias face, NO, Edea's face was also show before ultimecias, and right before Edea's, is Seifer's, and every character with some importance is also shown, Edea's and Ultimecias is just less obvius!

3: the resons (I think) his memories are this way (fogy and confusing) is probably becouse he is having a hard time remembering Rinoa. This is also why her face isn't showing in the spacesuit that crushes, only showing us his fear and the saddnes he get when losing the most dearest in his heart, but yet still don't remember her face!

4: the wings is similar probably becouse it is Ultimecias power (even though Edea or adel didn't show them) I guess

* I will gather more info before I go on to Greiver and the castle!

there is one point I agree with you is this: If Rinoa is the future ultimecia, it will explain the loop!

It is mentioned in one point (if I remember correctly) that Ultimecia want to be the only one living, thereby compressing time and space to kill everyone possible threating her!
This could be explained as a resoult of memory-loss becouse of the equipped GF, where her true motive would be to get Squall.
Still this is only theory

I think they have pretty similar features actually. Laguna just chose a poor example. I saw that video before and thought it focused on strange angles and positions so I didn't post it. But alas, Laguna stormed in with it anyway. lol

Anyway, Rinoa just has a wider smile on her face. Otherwise I like how the eyes look similar when they mix together.
And I remember that Ultimecia's speach in the final battle was also an indication of this in the theory.

"Reflect on your...Childhood...Your sensation...Your words...Your emotions...
Time...It will not wait...No matter...how hard you hold on. It escapes you...And...
I...can't...disappear yet."

The part about the childhood I can't remember clearly what it meant, but about time escaping you, I think that refered to how she as a Sorceress went to live on because she is immortal while Squall died.

Oh and I remember the significance of where Ultimecias castle was located now. This is pretty interesting.
Remember Squall and Rinoa's promise on where they were to meet again if they were separated?




I'll be here...
Why?
I'll be 'waiting' here...
For what?
I'll be waiting for you, so... If you come here...
You'll find me... I promise...

It was the flower garden outside of the orphanage. Coincidentally, that's exactly where Ultimecia has her castle in the future. And talks about time escaping her, reflecting on your childhood, and also summons a GF named after Squall's ring. And in the end her time compression brought both her and Squall back to that place.

Thanks you Athrun for emphasizing that. There are SOOO many things that point to this being true, and I think it's rather unfortunate that Square confirmed that she's not Ultemecia. If she WAS, it would make their love be so symbolic, but their fate ultimately so tragic, i think it'd add a MUCH deeper element to FF8.

And seriously, there are a LOTTT of coincidences between Rinoa/Ultimecia and their motives for things. even if Square says its not true, I still like to try to believe that it is.

what I can't agree on is the similarity Rinoa and Ultimecia you think they have!



this is what I'm trying to tell when I say Rinoa-Selphie-quistis-Ultimecia don't look alike!

Neither character have similar eyes to Ultimecia.
Nose, hard to tell
chin, Ultimecias look more like Quistis!

no super quality on short notice, Ultimecia picture seem too be rare, every one is the same pic!

I do agree that it would be somewhat interesting, but that's it!

Athrun, you said exactly what Rhad did about sorceresses being immortal, I don't know where you guys got that from. Edea gained her powers as a child and still aged. As for them looking similar, Ultimecia has a differently shaped head, lips, nose, and her hairline is more forward.

Well, then everybody forget the way they look. That's got such a MINUTE part to the theory as well. Besides however they might "look" there are TONSSS of other reasons that we've already mentioned why its possible and liekly for Rinoa to be Ultimecia.

Hard to say exact age but Edea doesn't look like a child in the ending when she gets her powers. she could though be in her late teens or young adult!!

Yeah, as Manc kind of mentioned, Edea gets her powers from the dying Ultimecia in the ending, which kind of completes the cycle in a way.

I never really thought of Rinoa being Ultimecia, but I think the story would have been a whole lot better if that were true, as Laguna mentioned, by adding depth to the story, but if Square really did say that it wasn't true, then it must not be, although I kind of want myself to think that it is true after reading all of this.

Maybe Squall got mad and killed Rinoa, then had a sex change and became Ultimecia?!

Really though why are we debating this if it was confirmed that Rinoa is not Ultimecia?

Cause it's bullshiit. Rinoa SHOULD be Ultimecia. There's so many facts that lead to that conclusion and it enhances the game so much. Shame on Square for not thinking that deeply about it.

In that ending though, Edea mentions that she was a sorceress already before taking Ultimecia's powers.
Thats where it kind of falls apart.

Also, the Final Fantasy VII compendium says a few things about Sephiroth and Jenova we all know aren't true by now. In all honesty, I think that sort of detail was meant to be left to our imaginations, no right or wrong answer.

I do think that the "Rinoa is Ultimecia Theory" is plausible. (I mentioned it in the first place.) I'm not sure what the compendiums say regarding it besides saying "its wrong."

Its the Ultimania guides you're talking about, right?

Then if Rinoa is Ultimecia, why would she possess herself in the past to save Seifer, who is fighting Squall and herself? The ##### makes no sense at all.

Matron was no different a sorceress than Ellone and Rinoa were, before she actually got the sorceress essence.
There's a difference between being a sorceress and "the" sorceress. Because several potentials exist in every time, but only one recieves the power of the sorceress passed on through "embodiment" ever since the Great Hyne.




Matron recieved the sorceress essence at the end of the game, as an adult, while in charge of the Orphanage. There was nothing in the game about her recieving her powers as a child. As a child she simply became one of those with the potential to inherit the sorceress essence, like several others like Rinoa and Ellone.



You can see that Cid clearly aged past her quite a bit over the years, and Matron still looks the same as she did when she ran the orphanage.
And I believe it was mentioned in the game that the Sorceress doesn't age when Adel's and Rinoa's involvement with the Sorceress essence was discussed. But I don't remember exactly when, I've forgotten most of this years ago. But if I run across it I'll post it here.

Also, the sorceress essence changes her appearance over time. Just like Adel and Edea. That's why she looks a bit different. (I don't remember why, but if I do I'll add that later. Like I said, I've forgotten most of this several years ago.)

I haven't played FFVIII in ages, so maybe I got the age bit screwed up. But you said "Because several potentials exist in every time, but only one recieves the power of the sorceress passed on through "embodiment" ever since the Great Hyne." which is untrue, Adel and Rinoa/Edea were alive at the same time with sorceress powers.

That's because of Ultimecia traveling back in time. She intends to possess all the Sorceresses at the same time.

And I found some symbolic references.





In the opening intro, the black feathers dispersing between Rinoa and Squall seems to symbolise Ultimecia.


And here's something interesting that Rinoa said.



It sounds very simmilar to what Ultimecia wants to do with Time Compression.

That's what i mean by there's plenty of proof there to make the theory stand.

and Rhad it wasn't the Ultimania guide that siad it wasn't true, I guess Square just came out out right and said it wasn't. Now that I think about ithough, I actually got that info from a Wiki source. Maybe we can't consider that credible, because I never personally heard square say it. SO maybe the theory is still alive if that fact isnt true

Well what I think is that it's not impossible that Square wanted to do more with Ultimecia's and Rinoa's story, but perhaps decided to skip it after all and cut many parts out of the game, or didn't include them at all. Which just makes all the other coincidences that they did leave in the game confusing for us.

If Square said that she isn't Ultimecia, then she isn't. But that doesn't mean that these coincidences weren't put there for a reason, even if they ended up deciding against adding that story in the final game.
But of course, if anyone asked them, it's likely they'd say no any way. Otherwise they'd have to give the fans an explanation.

Well, either that, or...

YEAH BOY THATD BE A KICKASSS SEQUEL HAHHAHHAHA

oh man. I don't understand why Square would cut stuff out from a game either, especially something huge like that. UNLESS they kept it open for a sequel. THEN its smart. Oh man, I'm so exciting, I hope they do .... somday

You say you have alot of proof to make the theory stand! I say you don't!

I'm not trying to put you down, I just can't agree that you have anything concrete!

About Edeas age, we don't know how old she was when she got Ultimecia's power, and we don't know whether a person with the Sorceres power age or not, nothing in the game give info 'bout this!
And we never get to see any FMV picures of Edea when she was handling the orphanage, so a good comparison between her past and present version by apparence is nonexisting!

beside Cid's renderad face look much yunger then his drawed face, this is though probably becouse difficulity to make a 3d character that have some fat and look wrinkled!


we don't know how old Adel is, looked like before or how she even changed apperence if she did!

these picture is taken out of sequence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H2WietzG-A
this is what I personally think what the feathers symbolise!
At 1:34 you see Squall making an attack against Seifer, which we know is the one always "mocking" Squall, Squall here is attacking to protect him self, an act of good = white feathers.
In the feathers is Rinoa shown, a symbolic that she is good!
the fethers disperse when Sorceress Edea(=evil) comes in the picture!

at 2:40 Seifer hurts Squall, 2:50 Squall counter-attack in rage and revenge, an act of evil=black fethers!
Rinoa emerges from behind the feathers going for Squall while the (Squall's and Rinoa's love=) black feathers disperse!

simply said: the feathers are a symbolic between good and evil! (feelings, act and so on)


but she can only posses one at a time! she never possesed more then one at a time in the game atleast. But wasn't her goal to destroy every other sorceress in time and everyone else that may be a threat to her?!

I can't argue about Griever or the placement of ultimecias castle, and some of the lines you pointet out, so far!
Griever is acctually the only really good proof to your theory you have. the other are very vague if you ask me!

To your defense, or rather adding to the theory, the Rinoa-Ultimecia could have given her power to Edea becouse the Sorceress potential Edea was so close to a familiar presence (familiar to Rinoa-Ultimecia), in this case child-Squall.

last but not least: I want to see that title on my shelve too!

I can't necessarily support what Athrun said, but all the points I've talked about make the theory valid. Look at my 2nd post in this thread it's got the bulk of it all there.

Then show me something that speaks against it.
I think you're mistaken here. Because there's obviously not anything that makes this theory impossible. That in turn means that these things do make it possible for the theory to work.


Then I think you're not really looking. Because if Square simply said that "Rinoa is Ultimecia", then it would work. Nothing actually prevents that from being true. On the contrary, lots of things point to it, whether it is true or isn't.

Post if you have anything concrete that speaks against it, besides nitpicking on little details. Which I can do about anything as well, including Selphie's gender (we don't actually know that she's a girl).


Does everything actually need to be spelled out for us to come to that conclusion?

"Nothing about this!" in the game, huh?



Adel is at least 90+ years old here. (It's stated in the game that she came to power in Esthar 80 years before Final Fantasy VIII began. I doubt she was an infant, or even 10 years old when she managed to do that, but I'll put her age as low as possible, 10, to make you happy.)
She sure doesn't look like 90 unless "she" had more plastic surgeries than Sheer. As for her gender, she definitely doesn't look female either. So you can nitpick all you want that there's no "proof" that the Sorceress doesn't age or doesn't age or change her appearance. Anyone can figure out that no child is born looking like that, and people don't look that young at the age of 90, right before their bodies are supposed to whither away and die.

As for Matron, we know that it happened well over a dacade ago. She looks very young still, while Cid doesn't.

Basically, your argument relies on circumstanial facts, or lack thereof. And this game didn't come with a dictionary fact sheet, which means we're not supposed to need them to understand the story.


It's the only comparison there is. That, and the fact that she still looks to be in her 20's while Cid looks like a middle aged man. Sure, he could be a pedophile, but I strongly doubt that.


He still looks pretty old to me, and fat. And Edea's portrait looks arround 15 - 20 years younger than Cid's anyway, so I don't see your point. She has smooth skin and very young features while Cid's have that of a middle aged man.


I can safely say that I haven't seen women born with mens bodies, or 90 (or possibly over 100) year old people looking as young as Adel.





The feathers are between Squall and Rinoa.

And there is no specific "sequence" in the intro. It's a collage of different scenes mashed together. You're speculating about the feathers representing good or evil, but there's nothing in the game that supports that! (See how easy it is to nitpick on everything?) The only thing you can say for certain is that the black feathers are in this scenes with Rinoa and Squall. And the only one with black feathers or black wings that I know of is Ultimecia.


No, I think she could possess them all. That was the only way to create magic powerful enough for Time Compression. I believe they said so in the game.


No. But since when were they a threat to her anyway? They weren't even aware of her, or alive in her time for that matter.


Things such as what I posted above, Rinoa saying that she doesn't want the future, and wants the present to stand still, it couldn't be any less vague unless she said "Squall... some day when I grow up, I'm going to make a time machine and compress time into a single moment that stands still. Oh, and I'll change my name to Ultimecia too."

If they were foreshadowing something regarding Rioa's future reflecting in things she said before that event happened, then this is the way they would do it, wouldn't you agree? Because Rinoa wouldn't know about the future herself. They would only be able to show us her personal wishes and dreams during that time through scenes just like that one.
And if she was supposed to be Ultimecia, then the promise she made with Squall on waiting for him at that flower garden, that if he came there, he would find her, that would have been a good way for them to show the significance of why Ultimecias castle is where it is.

So it's not any more vague than it should be. None of this is proof of Ultimecia being Rinoa. No one said it was. It's just things that makes that theory a possibility.
And even if the sorceress against all odds does age (yes, I believe strongly in the idea that no 90 year old would look lik eAdel) then that doesn't even matter. Rinoa was put to sleep as well, sealed away in Esthar. If they had left her like that, she could have woken up in the future where Squall would have already died. The only thing she would have left of him would have been the ring. (Which could explain how she has Griever as a G.F.)

And another thing that doesn't really make sense is why Ultimecia ended up at the Orphanage of all places. If I remember correctly, they said that you needed to focus on a time and place when time compression occurs. So what connection would Ultimecia have with that place that she ended up there herself?

Another explanation is that you don't age in Time Compression. If Rinoa really IS Ultimecia, then she created Time Compression, and when she went into it, she didn't age.

I think the fact that Ultimecia trys to kill the party, including Rinoa, is enough to really make you wonder how this could be true.

I'm considering replaying FFVIII to record every minor detail though, I guess I would ask to get a blog here so everyone can see, but I dunno yet. I would like it more if I got a person or two to do it also, so I don't have to record every little damn thing in 4 disks.

I just said you don't have proof that stand.
and for the moment, No I can't find anything that proves against your theory



I know I sound like I'm nitpicking you, that's why I wanted to make that clear that I don't trying to be mean!



didn't remember that about her, my fault! (first time I saw her in game i thought she was "he" and I wasn't the only one)



Did we get to see Cid back then?



Yep we don't need that, this is also why your's and mine theory doesn't have anything to back them up! From my point of view, are your arguments based on circumstanial facts too



I think Cid's face look rather smooth too
point is, neither of them have wrinkles in the ending FMV





Could aslo mean that their love break's down the evil

First of all; by sequence I mean the order of the scenes, and regarding the context, the order is important. and second; I said, this is what I think the feathers represent! but neither of your or mine theory about the feathers have stronger base then the other!



No, this time you are wrong, this is something I remember clearly! yes Ultimecia can possess everyone who is capable of being a sorceress, but not 2 or more at once, like when Edea get her own will back, that's when Rinoa gets Ultimecias power and falls in coma, when Adel is released, Adel becomes the Sorceress and Rinoa get her right consciousness back!



I see your point but think you're reading too much into it (I don't say it's impossible though)




If you're talking to my little add on, Iwill make it more clear: Rinoa-Ultimecia feelt the presence of many potent Sorceress but chooses Edea becouse she fells a familiar presence the child Squall! no proof too stand up for it, just another fun theory! much like yours!

Had to make 2 post's or the amound of quote's wouldn't work!

Well, there's actually a couple theories that could answer that:

1. When a sorceress loses her Knight, her powers completely take over her, and she eventually can't control them and the urges. If Rinoa has completely lost her sanity to her powers and struck with grief, then she might not consciously realize it's herself and Squall.

2. She has a very powerful GF, one that she claims is the strongest. And if you remember, GFs alter and erase memories. If she's had the most powerful GF for who knows how long, it's possible that she's forgotten where she came from.

Okay, well, one time when I played through she killed Rinoa. She should have exploded if Rinoa becomes Ultimecia (anyone ever wonder why they explode when they die?). I would think that to prevent any.. I dunno, time paradox, they would have designed it so that Rinoa does not take place in that fight or something.

They don't really explode, they are lost in time compression, I think that because they are unconscious, they lose their resistance to the time compression and just become compressed with it.

I don't know if this makes sense or not, but I'm just throwing this out there, that because of time compression, it doesn't matter that Rinoa is lost (I hesitate to use die because everyone is recovered) because everything is compressed into a single moment of time, so theres no point proceeding it, and therefore one can exist even if they themselves die in the past, because the past does not exist anymore (and again, I don't use die, which may be another factor, that Rinoa isn't capable of dying while fighting against Ultimecia, only the ability to become lost in time).

I really don't know if any of that makes sense to you guys.

Adel exploded, kinda.

Well no one said that it was proven. Just that these things makes the theory possible or plausible. Who were you refering to when you said that?


Oh, I know that. lol


If we did, I don't remember.


Well that's not what I mean. What I mean is that you are focusing on small details that we didn't find out, and we didn't because we probably didn't need to know them to come to our own conclusion. I'm pretty sure Selphie is a female, they don't need to show me her cromosome code for that. And I know that Laguna is Squall's father, and don't need to see his birth cirtificate for that. But someone using your argument can say "we really don't know for sure" Well no we dont, but Square made it "obvious" enough for us to come to those conclusions on our own. And if we needed more information, then they usually gave it to us. (Such as explaining that Adel came to power in Esthar 80 years before the game began.)
Edea's youthful look is one such obvious thing. Even if you don't want to look at the FMV because it doesn't show any closeups. If you have such a hard time seeing it, then compare their character portraits.








Edea's face is very youthful and smooth, while Cid's is aging and wrinkled.
So you can point out that we don't know her exact age, which is true, but what I'm saying is that it's obvious that she look very youthful while Cid doesn't, so I don't really need to know her age to tell me that. Just like with Adel.





Uhh, actually Cid does. You're just not looking close enough. I was going to say "That image is just low quality. I'm sure I can find a high res movie of the ending that shows his wrinkles" but instead I actually got that video to show you. Even in that picture, his face is full of chiseled older man features and look at his smile. It's the smile of an older man, and next to it are some wrinkles, or hints of wrinkles.

Compare it to Laguna, 17 years ago, and now.





I believe Laguna is close to 40 and he doesn't have any old man features or wrinkles.

Anyway, here are some pictures I took from the ending movie.





Don't tell me I have to zoom in to point out his wrinkles now? It's clear as day that his face is aged with wrinkles here. And it was obvious in the other picture as well if you just looked close enough. Compare it to picture #4 of Cid that I took, which is the same shot. I can see the wrinkles in both of them.



While Matron's facial features are very youthful and free from wrinkles.

Anyway, if you feel like nitpicking on things, thats fine. But it's a lot easier to just nitpick on things than to look up the info yourself before you do so. So why not try to look it up yourself next time, the video for example, to see if he has wrinkles before you chose to believe it and post it as a fact? Would save me some time. lol

Those just look like lines from smiling to me.

this is what I was refering to, a statment maybe made on impulse. yet this is the kinda thing I can hook up on!

I do reconsider every evidence, I watched the very same scene you show pictures of, many times. I just feel it's too uncertain.

Anyway, I'm leaving this topic as it is, we do pretty much agree on the weight on evidence, just choses our own separate standpoint what it should mean. and we both do have the right to do so.

And last, I must say you are really diligent and praise you for that

I know what you mean, but to me it doesn't look like the order is important. Most of these are FMV's from the games story, and the placements of the FMV might as well have been different to the same effect. The flashes of Edea might as well have come before or after one particular part of Squall and Seifers fight, which was no different than any other part of their battle, etc.

And I never said that it wasn't about their love. Ultimecia sure was a big obstacle to them being together.


You may be right. I don't remember the exact quote any more. But I remembered something about wanting to compress time to possess all witches, or possess all witches in order to compress time. Though I'm not sure. I could be wrong. Maybe that was what I thought her reasons were. But didn't Edea also control Rinoa at one point? When Rinoa tried to trick her and give her the Odine Necklace during the parade.

Anyway, what were Ultimecia's reasons for wanting to go further back in time for Time Compression?


We're trying to find reasons to supoport the Rinoa theory, to see evidence of possibilities for her becoming Ultimecia in the future, and this is one such thing.
If the story in the game was that Rinoa became Ultimecia, would you still say that it's reading too much into that scene to think her words back then reflects her actions in the furture?

I would definitely make that connection.

You don't get that many lines of smiling next to eachother when you're young though. Smiles emphesise your wrinkles. Compare to his character portrait, and it's exactly the same.
And Laguna's smile didn't look as old as that. Cid has an old man's smile.

Bottom line though, Cid looks old in that video, and Edea looks young.


Well there could be several reasons for that, but it does make you wonder. One theory is that if Rinoa continued to use G.F. her madness would only enhance over the years and her memories would start too vanish. Squall forgot half of his childhood just by using G.F. for 3 - 4 years. And Ultimecia can summon Griever so it's safe to assume that she at least has some experience with G.F.

as I remember, Ultimecia wasn't trying to go further back in time, she was after Ellone, for her power to send anyone consciousness through time, as I know it she need Ellone's power to archive time compression. Squall and the other manage to go to through time compression to where Ultimecia is thanks to Ellone. (you know when everyone stand together after defeting Adel, before travel to Ultimecia)

the reason she can go back and possess other sorceress is (if I remember correctly) a machine that dr. Odine made that emulate Ellones power

Dr Odine clearly said that Ultimecia wanted to go further back into the past.


The machine he is refering to is the machine based on Ellone's powers, which is how Ultimecia came to know about Ellone.

Oh and I just realised something. If Ellone's powers can only connect people to others that they know, then how did Ultimecia know Edea and Rinoa in order to be able to be sent back into their bodies?

More or less what I refered too, I was just wrong about what she wanted with Ellone

I suppose you will say something like, Rinoa-Ultimecia could posses Edea becouse she knew her from the time we play through.

it could also be that she wandered from sorcerer to sorcerer (if it's possible, we don't know), further and further back in time, until the machine reached it's limit!

both theories stand on equal grounds here.

Well you said she wasn't going further back in time. But as it turns out, she went back to "young Adel" which we don't get to see in the game, or exactly how many years in time she goes back. Why exactly does she need to go that far back in time is what I don't understand.

Neither do i! Don't think it's mentioned, but I can be wrong!

Well anyway, what's your comment on these quotes?

Rinoa: "If I fall under Ultimecia's control again... SeeD will come kill
me, right? And the leader of SeeD is you, Squall... Squall's sword will
pierce my heart...... I guess it's ok if it's you, Squall. Nobody else.
Squall, if that ever happens..."

Ultimecia is killed by Squall, so if Rinoa were Ultimecia, this would be a clear foreshadowing.


That's a plausible explnation. Still, it feels a bit coincidental. Especially combined with where her castle was located in the future.
And this is Dr Odines explanation on what to do during Time Compression:

"What place reminds you of your friends? Imagine being in that
place with all your friends. Once time compression begins, think of
that place and try to get there! That's all! That place will welcome
you. You'll be able to get there no matter what period you're in!"

And Ultimecia ended up at the orphanage, at a time when Rinoa and all her friends lived there.
I don't know if that's the only way to get through time compression, but it's the only explanation we get. "A place that reminds you of your friends."

You have to admit, there's a lot of things that would make the Rinoa theory make sense. Most of the pieces are already there. It wouldn't take much from Square to add the last bits to it. And personally I think it would have made the story a lot more interesting. It's definitely something I'd like to see if a FF8 sequel was ever made.

you forgot the quote on the ragnarok.

I's plauseible but I consider it a personal interpretation what it stands for!

Well I don't mean what it actually means.
I mean what if we assume that Rinoa is Ultimecia for a moment, what do those quotes tell you then?
(Yeah, including the Ragnarok quote.)



And the promise that if Squall comes to the flower garden, he will find her. She will be 'waiting' for him there.




I'll be here...
Why?
I'll be 'waiting' here...
For what?
I'll be waiting for you, so... If you come here...
You'll find me... I promise...

(She actually said that with the quotation arround the word 'waiting')

I think they make a lot of sense then, since there always have to be some sort of signs or foreshadowing to an event such as that. It can't just come out of nowhere that Rinoa suddenly turns into Ultimecia and goes crazy, if you know what I mean?

I'm not saying that this is what they really meant. But rather that wouldn't there be a need for exactly these kind of things in the game if she actually was to be Ultimecia? Or do you think that if she was Ultimecia, her motives should just come out of nowhere and not developed from anything?

(This post is IMMENSLY long, BUT for Manc's sake and other disbelievers that the theory doesnt hold, and for Athrun's sake to be able to argue against them, I highly recommend reading the thing thoroughly. What I've compiled right here is one of the most in depth analysis I've seen on the internet concerining this (I did a lot of research and these are all my own thoughts). So here it is:



Well, I've been trying to follow your arguments. And there's one point I want you guys to PLEASE forget about because it makes no sense arguing over:

How old they look.

That is the lamest way to try to prove a theory. Talking about wrinkles, or approximating age by looks, is just futile. Some people look older than others, some wrinkle different times. Maybe Cid is a habitual chain smoker, that's why he has lots of wrinkles on his face, and Edea uses neutrogena cleansing soap, so her face is nice and clear.

It's really pointless to argue over. Maybe one has better genes than another. Look at EVERYTHING else that points to the theory:

1. Ultimecia has a GF Griever. And that GF is DIRECTLY connected to Squall. The only ones who really knew about it was Rinoa and Squall.

2. Rinoa inherits sorceress powers. We know sorceress powers, without a knight, can eventually become overtaking and controlling.

3. Ultimecia's castle is located at the promised spot between Rinoa and Squall.

4. (We know wings are significant in Final Fantasies). Rinoa and Ultimecia are the only ones who show to have wings in the game. Not only does Rinoa's ultimate limit break have her grow wings, but in one of the FMVs as a shot of her back, a large pair of transparent wings appear on her back. She already has small whie wings imprinted ON her shirt. Ultimecia has wings too, albeit black, it could be argued they changed colors due to the evil taking her over.

5. There are a confirmed 15 sorceresses stated in the game believe it or not. Rinoa, Adel, Edea, Ultimecia, and the 11 Sorceresses in the "Commencement Room" at the end of the game. Rinoa inherits Edea's powers after Galbadia (which is what knocks her out originally). Then they release Adel, and when Adel is dead, Rinoa inherits Adel's powers too. Then when they go to Time Compression, they defeat the 11 sorceresses in battles, and it can be said that their powers would go to Rinoa, the closest sorcereress, as well. With all of this, Rinoa has an IMMENSE amount of power in her.


Things we assume that make the theory work:
1. Squall has died. He was her Knight. Edea says to Rinoa that sorceress powers can easily be corrupting unless there are friends there to rely on emotionally. Edea says a Knight is the best thing Rinoa could have.
2. Rinoa's immense powers take over her when Squall dies, and she decides to create Time Compression in order to freeze herself in a moment of time in order to try and find a way to get Squall back.
3. She creates Time Compression for this reason because she locates it at their meeting place, and junctions the Greiver to herself as a momento to Squall and their promise.

Other important points:
1. I believe that sorceresses DO age. Edea receives sorceress powers at age 5 (not Ultimecia's, but sorceress powers nonetheless), yet in the game she's CLEARLY not 5, she's older. Also, Adel searches the young girls for successor because she in fact does age and would eventually need another in order to take her position. Now, Adel may still be alive after so many years in space for a couple of reasons
a. Sorceresses age, but maybe longer lifespans than humans, we don't know that for sure, but it's certainly a possibility. So maybe in space she was still aging, but with a prolonged life due to her powers.
b. What she was sealed in makes her not age. Just freezes her there.
Note: Ultimecia doesn't appear to age at all because she's in Time Compression, and due to that fact, since it's a single moment in time, it could very well be impossible to age in there.

2. Well, you might be asking, If Rinoa is Ultimecia, how come she would kill Squall once he finally got there? There's 2 explanations for this:
a. She has had the GF equipped on her for who knows how long (we don't know Ultimecia's age or how long she's been around). And GFs make your memory disappear, so she very well could have forgotten her love for Squall and just let the sorceress powers cmpletely take her over (Since she already inherited the powers from so many sorceresses)
b. The fact that her sorceress powers are SO untamed, that she's not able to consciously stop herself. She's possessed by these powers. According to something I found in the game that's interesting, the Sorceress Powers appear to be like physical weapons. They're something that are everlasting and must be passed on once a sorceress dies. There is the Myth of "The Great Hyne" in the game, which I didn't hear of till recently. It goes that there was the first sorceress, Hyne, who created hte universe (he created space and time). He created the humans. Then he decided they were too advanced so he wanted to kill them all. He lost. And ended up giving away half of himself to the humans, which manifested itself as sorceress powers.
So Ultimecia, who inherited all the sorceress powers, (Which fits, because Rinoa inhereited lots of sorceress powers), controls the entire half of Hyne, including time and space, which allows her to bend time with Time Compression.

3. Another thing that people ask about this theory: Well at the end of the game, how is it possible for Rinoa to be there fighting Ultimecia if they're the same person? Easy. Time flows in a never ending circle. The reason why Edea inherits Ultimecia's power in the first place is because Ultimecia was defeated by Squall, but how can Ultimecia be defeated if Squall isn't even born yet? It's because it's a huge circle with no start or end. Ultimecia is defeated, passes her powers to Edea, Edea the becomes possessed by her (but how, Ultimecia's dead right? Wrong. Time's a circle). Squall comes into the picture, and FF8 happens, and then he defeats Ultimecia and it starts all over again).
If you remember in the end, Squall is still lost in Time Compression and witnesses Ultimecia pass on her powers to Edea. Younger Squall runs up into the picture. And CLEARLY acknowledges older Squall saying "who's he?". So it's possible for the same being to exist twice when Time Compression coems into place. That's why Rinoa can still fight Ultimecia at hte same time.



4. Athrun makes another outstanding point. Ellone can only send people she knows back in time to people she knows. So the machine that derivates from her powers would do the same. That being said, Ultimecia would have to know Rinoa/Edea in order to send her powers to them. There's 2 reasons to explain how she knows them :
1. Since time is a circle and it's repeating, Ultimecia has already met Rinoa and Edea based on the future, and so she's able to go back to them because she already knows them.
2. If Rinoa IS Ultimecia, then she would know Edea.


5. The ending in the ballroom shows some pretty interesting scenes. When it flashes to Rinoa's face falling toward the camera, Ultimecia's face flashes on hers. Not a big deal, and doesn't really prove anything, but it's awfully funny that that's what Squall sees after Ultimecia is defeated. That he sees the image of Ultimecia in Rinoa.

6. You may be ready to tell me, "But LW, time flows, you can't go back in time." Yes, well I have clear proof that the world of Final Fantasy VIII is different. When Squall passes the mission to qualify for SeeD, we can see that SeeD already existed before him. Edea and Cid created it right? Well they did, BUT, the idea came from Squall. When Squall sees Edea inherit Ultimecia's powers, he tells Edea that he's a member of SeeD. Edea has no idea what SeeD is, and Squall tells her that it's an organization that she will go on to create. SO, in the middle of the game, it appears as though Edea started SeeD and Squall joined, yet Squall was the one who gave Edea the original idea by going back in time. This is most unambigious, chicken-egg-scenario to prove that time has a loophole circle:

And time in this world doesn't flow from point A to point B. There are MULTIPLE loopholes in time. There's the loophole that sends Ultimecia into the past. And the loophole that Rinoa has to TURN into Ultimecia before Ultimecia can be defeated. So there are lots of quirks with time, it doesn't just flow from point A to point B. And the other thing that makes it impossible to go through detail by detail, is that Time Compression is like another universe, so we could be talking about parallel universes here which would just give us a headache. It could be argued that every time Ultimecia is defeated in time, another universe is created, here's why:

Rinoa is there to witness the defeat of Ultimecia. Which means she hasn't BECOME Ultimecia yet. It's only after the ending of FF8 that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia. So let's call Rinoa in the game Rinoa1. Rinoa1 defeats Ultimecia and continued on with her life with Squall. AT THIS SAME TIME, Ultimicia has gone back in time and passed her powers on. This would lead Rinoa2 to eventually be born. As this is happening, Rinoa1 is still with Squall after the end of the game. And eventually becomes Ultimecia. Then Ultimicia is defeated by Rinoa2 and goes back in time, Rinoa3 eventually born, and so on and so forth (This is the most confusing part of my argument, and probably a big reason why Square deciuded not to follow through with it all.)


All in all, I think that that's the most complete version of the theory. I've based all those things off of things that cannot be ambiguous like how old people look, what their age is, but on fact and theory.

Although this is long, I highly recommend you reading everything about it if you want to rebuttle any part of the theory being not true.