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Bomb
QUOTE
"Anonymous" releases statements outlining "War on Scientology"

January 23, 2008

The Internet-based group "Anonymous" has released statements on YouTube and via a press release, outlining what they call a "War on Scientology". Church of Scientology related websites, such as religiousfreedomwatch.org have been removed due to a suspected distributed denial-of-service-attack (DDoS) by a group calling themselves "Anonymous". On Friday, the same group allegedly brought down Scientology's main website, scientology.org, which was available sporadically throughout the weekend.

Several websites relating to the Church of Scientology have been slowed down, brought to a complete halt or seemingly removed from the Internet completely in an attack which seems to be continuous. The scientology.org site was back online briefly on Monday, and is currently loading slowly.

On Monday, the group released a video titled: "Message to Scientology" on YouTube concerning their intentions to attack the Church of Scientology. A robotic voice on the video begins with "Hello leaders of Scientology. We are Anonymous," and continues by explaining their motivations: "Over the years we have been watching you, your campaigns of misinformation, your suppression of dissent and your litigious nature. All of these things have caught our eye. With the leakage of your latest propaganda video into mainstream circulation the extent of your malign influence over those who have come to trust you as leaders has been made clear to us. Anonymous has therefore decided that your organisation should be destroyed." The message goes on to state that the group intends to "expel Scientology from the Internet". As of Wednesday, the video had been viewed 370,347 times, favorited 2,473 times, and is currently YouTube's top third video of the day.

The "Message to Scientology" video was highlighted as the "YouTube Video of the Week" by The Michigan Daily. Commenting on the video, the piece states "if this video is any indication, it seems like the assailants mean business". In a blog post on USA Today's website, Jess Zielinski wrote that it was "not a shock that hackers hold a grudge against Scientology," and in a followup post on another USA Today blog, Angela Gunn wrote that "those of us who remember ... the adventures of Operation Clambake are fascinated to see this kind of thing flare up again". Blogging for Wired magazine, Ryan Singel wrote about the incident in a piece on Wednesay titled "War Breaks Out Between Hackers and Scientology -- There Can Be Only One". Singel wrote that the Project Chanology wiki page "directs Anonymous members to download and use denial of service software, make prank calls, host Scientology documents the Church considers proprietary, and fax endless loops of black pages to the Church's fax machines to waste ink". According to Wired, "The Church of Scientology did not immediately respond to a call for comment".

The viewpoints expressed in the video are echoed on the "Project Chanology" website, an open source of information and direction for those within Anonymous, which talks of tactics such as blackfaxing and prank calling alongside other "real-life" methods of attack. The satirical website Encyclopedia Dramatica also has a similar page devoted to "Project Chanology".

"Anonymous" released a statement on Monday in the form of a press release, "Internet Group Anonymous Declares "War on Scientology": "Anonymous" are fighting the Church of Scientology and the Religious Technology Center". In the statement, the group explained their goal as safeguarding the right to freedom of speech "A spokesperson said that the group's goals include bringing an end to the financial exploitation of Church members and protecting the right to free speech, a right which they claim was consistently violated by the Church of Scientology in pursuit of its opponents." The press release also claimed that the Church of Scientology misused copyright and trademark law in order to remove criticism from websites including Digg and YouTube. The statement goes on to assert that the attacks from the group "will continue until the Church of Scientology reacts, at which point they will change strategy".

The attack was reportedly motivated by the Church of Scientology's attempts to remove a promotional video featuring Scientologist Tom Cruise from YouTube. After the Church of Scientology lodged a copyright infringement complaint with YouTube, the site took down the video. The Tom Cruise video is still available on Gawker.com, which has stated it will not remove the video "It's newsworthy, and we will not be removing it."

Gawker.com discussed the actions of the "Anonymous" group, in a post on Monday titled "Scientology vs. the Internet: Why Kids On The Internet Are Scientology's Most Powerful Enemy". Gawker.com briefly outlined actions of other anonymous users critical of Scientology, including actions taken in the past by users of YouTube, Digg, and YTMND "This isn't the only group of Internet users unafraid of the intimidating cult; a whole range of sites has turned the Church into a mockery by doing what mainstream celebrity-coverage outlets wouldn't dare."

A poster on the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology (a.r.s.) was critical of the actions by the "Anonymous" group. In a post titled "Open Letter to Anonymous" Jeff Jacobsen, webmaster of lisamcpherson.org, posting as "cultxpt" wrote that "It's understandable that people get upset over the things the Church of Scientology has done online and off", pointing out that the Church of Scientology had "tried to shut down a.r.s.", and "spam our newsgroup to this day". In 1999 "sporgery", a form of nonsensical spam tactic, was used as an attempt to disrupt discussion on the newsgroup. Previously in 1995 Helena Kobrin, an attorney for the Church of Scientology, attempted to remove the a.r.s. group from Usenet. Kobrin sent a rmgroup message which stated: "We have requested that the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup be removed from all sites". This later led to a declaration of war by the hacker group Cult of the Dead Cow, and an increase in popularity of the a.r.s site. This initial conflict came to be known as "Scientology versus the Internet".

The post from Jacobsen went on to criticize the actions of the "Anonymous" group, stating: "We're supposed to be the good people," and stated that contrary to the Anonymous group's tactics, "Our weapons as critics are reason, evidence, argument, and free speech".

On Tuesday, the founder of Operation Clambake, a non-profit organization and website critical of Scientology based in Stavanger, Norway, released a statement about the attacks by "Anonymous". Andreas Heldal-Lund was critical of the "Anonymous" groups actions, stating: "The author of Operation Clambake does not condone such activity. Attacking Scientology like that will just make them play the religious persecution card. They will use it to defend their own counter actions when they try to shatter criticism and crush critics without mercy." Heldal-Lund went on to emphasize the right of all people and organizations to freedom of speech - including the Church of Scientology: "Freedom of speech means we need to allow all to speak - including those we strongly disagree with. I am of the opinion that the Church of Scientology is a criminal organisation and a cult which is designed by its delusional founder to abuse people. I am still committed to fight for their right to speak their opinion."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCbKv9yiLiQ

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/%22Anonymous%2..._Scientology%22

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/PROJECT_CHANOLOGY

Oh snap it is on!
Ken Masters
Most interesting, I think I'll be keeping an eye on how things go.
Pesmerga
Haha, this could be good =D.
Xanadu
Should be interesting.
I'm quite worried that this could turn into World War III.
Valince
All this group is doing is inadvertently putting an even bigger dent in the bad reputation that religion as a whole has gained for itself. Good luck with that.
The Evil Dead
This would be cool if it applied to all religions. Scientology is no more ridiculous than the numerous other religions that people for some reason follow.

It's not on. At all. Go waste your leet skills pwning some kiddie porn site or something if you want to do some good with the internets.
Noir
"We're enforcing Freedom of Speech, so SHUT THE ##### UP SCIENTOLOGY!"

DDoS attacks are good fun, but this just seems like a waste of effort. They did fine without the internet, they'll manage.

Edit, says the man with a Scientologist as an avatar.
Bomb
QUOTE (Noir @ Jan 26 2008, 03:27 AM) *
"We're enforcing Freedom of Speech, so SHUT THE ##### UP SCIENTOLOGY!"

Or rather, "We're enforcing Freedom of Speech, so we will attack a group that breaks the law in order to suppress free speech by fighting fire with fire. Want to ##### with Freedom of Speech? Prepare to be ##### with."

Scientology goes after all kinds of people who put up any kind of not-fun information about them, pretty visciously. They even got the Anonymous video pulled by claiming it was a video made by them and "only intended for members." What a load. When people desert the "church," there's like some crazyass task force designated to ruining the person's life as much as possible -- even compared to other groups that might hold the same ugly claim.

I raise a glass of cheers and wish the gang luck, myself.
Noir
Everyone says Schentology is crazy, yet not a single one of you have ever given me a reason. Literally not one that I didn't laugh at.

Like TED said, there are worse "religions" out there, this is just pathetic.

Here we go: http://s228.photobucket.com/albums/ee178/u...01354403062.jpg
AbYsS
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/

I dunno if EVERYTHING in there is 100% concrete truth, but you could investigate it yourself. I know I know, Its a YTMND, But it could have some truth to it.

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

And theres another one.
Again, search it up yourself, I believe it enough. Scientology is a load of BS. I really dont like it, not at all. GO Anon! D: You always Deliver!

Though I dont doubt that there are worse religions, but I havent seen what the others have done.
>.>;
Noir
I know of one, check it out, I think it's called "Christianity".

Those facts are very questionable, I can't find a site to reproduce them, and I am not about to believe a ##### YTMND. And yes Anon usually delivers, but this is going to take more than a simple keyboard on the head.
Bomb
QUOTE (Noir @ Jan 26 2008, 09:55 PM) *
Everyone says Schentology is crazy, yet not a single one of you have ever given me a reason.

It's not just that someone here is saying that "it's crazy, attack it." You misunderstand. It's that the group openly violates the rights (by doing the same stuff that Anon is doing -- blackfaxing, harassing, and launching DDOS attacks on harmless websites) of those who speak out against it, and the #####'s gone on long enough.

QUOTE (Noir @ Jan 26 2008, 09:55 PM) *
I know of one, check it out, I think it's called "Christianity".

Late to the 14th century party? laugh.gif
Noir
There are still Christianity related deaths. And I know aaaall about what they have done, it's all I've heard about all day.

Scientologists on *Chan, this is great.

FREE PREVIEW. No credit card required!

QUOTE (420Chaaaaaaaan!)
Phyllis Pamblewene 08/01/26(Sat)21:12 No.152006 [Reply]

get a life you hackers you think ur big and bad try actually doing something in the real world instead of sitting on your fat asses on the internet thinking ur big shots ##### you ok you are nothing never will be nothing scientology owns you

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
Bomb
Oh man, the lulz laugh.gif
Noir
What I don't get is they said to do something in real life because they're being nailed online. I mean wtf am I supposed to do? "Is your house made of wood? Because I heard those things burn"
KaiserDragon18
QUOTE (Noir @ Jan 27 2008, 02:20 AM) *
There are still Christianity related deaths.


Err...riiight.
That may be true, but that's only among the neurotic extremists, and those are the kinds of people that my kind tend to not want to be associated with. They are the very small exception.
Also, in case you were going to use this as a counter-argument, sexual and racial discrimination occurs within the non-religious crowd, as well. (Not to mention discrimination is actually frowned upon by my sect)

The crimes committed by Christianity as a whole in the last fifty years pale in comparison to what Scientology has done. Generally, I don't think Christians wage smear campaigns against former members. Yes, we show disdain for the person who has left, if we know them well enough, but we also try to get them to come back (which, I'm sure, is a grave slight against all those who have been "freed" from religion). We never take legal action against our detractors and rarely try to rid the airways and the net of any mention of opposition. We understand that there are certain groups of people who hate us, and while we hope they will see the light, we generally don't try to completely silence said opposition. Scientology does. I mean, look at that South Park episode parodying Scientology.
Scientology forces its followers to pay an arm and a leg--not to mention a spleen, half of your liver, and your left lung--for its services. The followers even donate tons of money on top of that! Christianity, and many other religions, I'm quite sure, only asks us to donate what we can. At most, we should be donating 10% of our income (and yes, I do agree that that is a lot of money), but in the end, it's a choice to do so. And as far as I know, there's no apparent "spiritual penalty" for it. Scientologists, on the other hand, are forced to pay. They have no choice.

And as a psychology student, I'm abhorred by the way Scientology turns psychologists into manipulative, evil people who are rooting for the ruination of the world. While it is true that psychology as a field is still growing and changing, and that we don't know near enough about that mind than we should, the same could be said for medicine, or for any other science. Scientologists may complain that psychologists require payment for their treatment, but so do doctors, and Scientology "technology" workshops cost quite a bit of money themselves. To tell the truth, in a perfect world, psychologists and medics would work for free, and the community would provide for them, but this isn't a perfect world, now is it?
As a former pre-med student, I also find it terrible that they take people who have dangerous diseases or disorders off their medication...medication that is meant to control those diseases so they don't turn deadly. And why do they do this? Because they believe that through our own force of will, and by "cleansing" ourselves or whatever, we can cure the disease on our own.

It all just seems...so wrong.
The Evil Dead
QUOTE
The crimes committed by Christianity as a whole in the last fifty years pale in comparison to what Scientology has done.


If you cannot find both religions to be equally ridiculous and with their faults then I personally find anything you post regarding religion in general to be nonsense. This is truly the folly of our country. How you could attempt to even simplify the religions and compare them as " oh my Scientology is worse " is utter nonsense.

THE WHITE MAN'S GOTTA GOD. Even though it was stolen from those you hate so much in a certain area in the middle east.

Where is like... The highest number of NON religious people located? Get me out, now.
Pesmerga
QUOTE (KaiserDragon18 @ Feb 1 2008, 02:45 PM) *
We understand that there are certain groups of people who hate us, and while we hope they will see the light


And that is the exact reason why I do not like Christianity. Always acting as if you're better than non Christian people.
To me, Christianity and Scientology are no better than each other.
I have 'seen the light' and that is why I do not like Christianity.
Dragon Brigade
QUOTE (_Pesmerga_ @ Feb 1 2008, 07:07 PM) *
Always acting as if you're better than non Christian people.



I apologize that I've seemed that way. I was unaware there was a difference in the first place between people who believed different things; just the way they express them.

Anyway, on topic, I don't really have to much to say about this whole war thing >.>.
Denim
QUOTE (The Evil Dead @ Feb 1 2008, 06:32 PM) *
QUOTE
The crimes committed by Christianity as a whole in the last fifty years pale in comparison to what Scientology has done.


If you cannot find both religions to be equally ridiculous and with their faults then I personally find anything you post regarding religion in general to be nonsense. This is truly the folly of our country. How you could attempt to even simplify the religions and compare them as " oh my Scientology is worse " is utter nonsense.

THE WHITE MAN'S GOTTA GOD. Even though it was stolen from those you hate so much in a certain area in the middle east.

Where is like... The highest number of NON religious people located? Get me out, now.


Per capita? Latvia.
Or China, I guess, but they don't really count.

Generally, though, it's here and Canada.
The Evil Dead
Definitely not here. I live in the land of the Christian White Right. smile.gif
Noir
Kaiser, what is your point? You said I was correct. I said there are still Christianity related deaths. Not that there are more as opposed to another group, not that Christianity is better or worse than anyone, it's a black and white crystal clear fact, and you agree. It seems like you just fabricated an opinion for me, which I don't appreciate. Jumping to conclusions based on one small statement is stupid.

Christianity and Scientology are equal in my opinion, based on what I read that I find reliable and what I have seen. I didn't even read all of your post or most others in this thread, there's just no point. Christians always find something to say about why they are better than another group.
Pesmerga
QUOTE (Dragon Brigade @ Feb 2 2008, 01:10 AM) *
QUOTE (_Pesmerga_ @ Feb 1 2008, 07:07 PM) *
Always acting as if you're better than non Christian people.



I apologize that I've seemed that way. I was unaware there was a difference in the first place between people who believed different things; just the way they express them.

Anyway, on topic, I don't really have to much to say about this whole war thing >.>.


Not a personal attack or anything, but getting told by a Christian that, if I would live a good life, I wouldn't go to heaven, because I am not a Christian really threw me off.
That and comments like I quoted from Kaiserdragon.
Death
I just find the whole thing funny.

It's like racism, with religion =D

Anyway. Yeah, money powers the US. You have it, you have everything.
SharkFinn
All I'll say about this war thing is this: Freedom of speech works both ways.

I guess that's why Scientology is being attacked here and not Christianity, Buddhism, or any other religions. Like KaiserDragon said, we generally don't go out of our way to defame those who don't agree with us. Yes, there are the radicals. Among people in this world, very little pisses me off more than a radical right-wing Christian because they are the ones who give all the rest of us a bad name. Atheists just kind of make me sad; radical Christians make me angry because they probably do quite a bit of contributing to the reasons why all you atheists out there are atheists in the first place.

Before you start saying I'm saying I'm better than you, or I'm better than them, I'm not saying that at all. We manifest our badness in different ways, I guess. I don't believe anyone is any better or worse than anyone else.

I get the feeling I'm going to be somehow assaulted for this, but I don't know why...
LifeonMars73
I'd say the reason you're no doubt going to get an off topic bashing is because of the comment that:

"Atheists just kind of make me sad; radical Christians make me angry because they probably do quite a bit of contributing to the reasons why all you atheists out there are atheists in the first place."

Atheists make you sad? Comes across as patronising. One of the major reasons Atheism flourishes is due to radical Christianity in all its forms? Basically Atheism is not a legitimate view or one born out of deep, personal soul searching or world experience, it's actually directly tied to radical sects and factions of your percieved legitimate religion. In one simple comment you are condescending, imply that Atheism is a nutty belief born of a nutty expression of your beliefs and manage to make Christianity sound superior because in your view Atheism is intrinsically tied to it.

Anyway, back on topic. A bunch of kids on the internet will change nothing. Scientologists should be free to express their beliefs. In order to expose the illegal actions undertaken by Scientologists, simply do some research, publish the facts in a manner easily accessible to the public and point out all their past wrongdoings. Hell, peacefully protest their illegal actions. Responding, however, to illegalities with more illegalities will simply lead to cries of persecution and will undermine the truth of the matter. The last thing you want is the gray fallacy from the public.

Besides it's a bunch of disgruntled hackers and some groupie script kiddies. They'll get bored and move on soon enough.
Wandering Aesthetic
I see no problem with giving scientologists as good as they've given out.

And, are you people actually familiar with the "every bit as illegitimate as Christianity" beliefs of Scientology?

As an agnostic, I have respect for real Christians, and pity for anyone who got sucked in by that crap. L. Ron Hubbard quite literally made it up as a scam. He was quoted as saying: "Anyone who really wants to make money should start their own religion."
The Evil Dead
How is anything in Christianity any different than something founded by a science fiction writer? Obviously human hands had to write the Bible just as good ol' Captain Dianetics threw together his own little religion. I just fail to see the difference between the two. Both were written and practiced by man, but because Scientology is a fairly recently developed structure so many are quick to dismiss it as nonsense but forget what amount of nonsense there is in EVERY other religion. I just don't see how you can give any religion more credibility than another when they're both equally ridiculous.

It's no different.

Religion is the greatest folly of mankind. If I had my way anything religious would be burned. I really can't express my distaste for any form of religion enough.

Jeez we're just going to have to open a general thread for thoughts on religion here soon enough.
SharkFinn
QUOTE (LifeonMars73 @ Feb 2 2008, 09:36 PM) *
I'd say the reason you're no doubt going to get an off topic bashing is because of the comment that:

"Atheists just kind of make me sad; radical Christians make me angry because they probably do quite a bit of contributing to the reasons why all you atheists out there are atheists in the first place."

Atheists make you sad? Comes across as patronising. One of the major reasons Atheism flourishes is due to radical Christianity in all its forms? Basically Atheism is not a legitimate view or one born out of deep, personal soul searching or world experience, it's actually directly tied to radical sects and factions of your percieved legitimate religion. In one simple comment you are condescending, imply that Atheism is a nutty belief born of a nutty expression of your beliefs and manage to make Christianity sound superior because in your view Atheism is intrinsically tied to it.

I thought that statement might be the one, but I wasn't sure what was wrong with it. Now I am. Allow me to clarify a few things.

I understand why you might say the "atheists make me sad" comment was patronizing, although that was not my intent. To clarify, atheists make me sad because they aren't going to heaven as long as they remain atheists. I wouldn't call empathy patronizing, although, sadly, it often comes off that way, and it probably still does. I'll take my lumps on that one, because I stand by my statement. Atheists truly do make me sad, especially when they are my friends.

As for the "atheism is a sect of Christianity" thing, I should give some background on that as well. Very few atheists I have met have actually given me a reason why they are atheists. I get all sorts of reasons why they're not Christians, most of which are tied to the Christian right being bigoted and hypocritical and to the Bible being self-contradictory. My assumption, then, which I maybe should not have made, was that atheism was fueled in part in many people by a dislike of Christianity. I understand that there are other reasons; I've just never seen them given. Please forgive my apparent closed-mindedness, and in the future, if you could all help me understand why you are atheists, it would make my life easier in future situations such as these.

TED has a point. All religions are equally ridiculous by human logic. Religious people just have to take their faith on faith. I don't think the hackers are attacking Scientology because it's ridiculous. More likely it's because of Scientology's proneness to lawsuits and defamation tactics.
LifeonMars73
QUOTE
Very few atheists I have met have actually given me a reason why they are atheists. I get all sorts of reasons why they're not Christians, most of which are tied to the Christian right being bigoted and hypocritical and to the Bible being self-contradictory. My assumption, then, which I maybe should not have made, was that atheism was fueled in part in many people by a dislike of Christianity. I understand that there are other reasons; I've just never seen them given.


I'm not quite sure what you're expectations are. It seems that they are giving you perfectly capable answers, you just have a problem dealing with them. For many, if not all, to experience the jump from belief to lack thereof, they must experience the former. Therefore many Atheists are raised in homes where religion, faith and belief played a part, however small. They will live and experience religion before identifying which areas of said religion seem ring hollow or do not sit well with their personal belief system, and then consequently make the jump from belief in a deity to belief such a being does not exist.

Now applying the above to your example, I'm suprised you don't acknowledge the validity of some Atheist reasoning. I'm not asking you to accept this line of thinking, simply acknowledge that it does exist and is comprised of sound reasoning. In your examples the Atheists rejected Christianity for a variety of reasons. You provide the following two: Problems with the man-made organisation of Christianity (specifically relating to the attitudes of Christians in relation to politics, and using politics as a platform to further religious belief) and problems with hypocritical members of the Christian church; and the self contradictory nature of a book claimed to be divinely inspired. Let's go through these three reasons in turn.

1) Matthew 22:21, John 18:36, Acts 5:29. Your mileage may vary, but I interpret these verses as strong advocation for the seperation between Church and State. Now after reading these verses, and viewing the attitudes of the more prominent and outspoken Christians within your political system, could you not see how someone could be disgruntled or jaded? The Bible tells you to preach, and instead some Christians try to force their beliefs on your country. Could this blatant hypocrisy not lead someone to question the divine nature of Christianity, and why your god allows men to corrupt what is apparently holy scripture for material gain?

2) I won't go in to the self-contradiction argument. There are far too many examples, as well as far too many versions of the Bible itself to fully wrangle this one out. One side argues A, the other side argues B and we get nowhere. However the fact these arguments even take place is a sign to some that perhaps the Bible is the work of various men, and not the work of a god.

Atheism can be succinctly described as the belief there is no God, or perhaps more broadly to encompass more than just Christianity, the disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. To believe there is no God, you must first understand the belief in God. Anything else is simply ignorant. You must experience a belief system, or at the very least research them, before you can reject or augment its tenents to match your own personal beliefs.

In actuality this is just the reverse of the many reasons people provide for their belief in Christianity, to use your example. "The world seems hopeless without Christianity." "People have always believed in God and morals." "Look around, the world needs a designer." I could easily dismiss these commonly provided reasons as invalid because they rely on reasons outside of Christianity itself, some even bordering on reasons why the speaker is not Atheist.

Religion, belief and lack thereof is a complex issue, with each facet so closely stitched together. To define light, you have to define dark and vice versa. There's no need to question beliefs, because in the end we all have the same answer. Why are you Christian? Why are you Atheist? Why are you Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Zoroastrianist? For the same simple reason: We believe it to be true.

Back on topic. I'd say completely eliminating religion is a little on the harsh side TED. tongue.gif Destroying a religion, or religion itself would just make it come back stronger. Which is why I will again advocate a method to publically make known the wrongdoings of Scientology. Fighting fire with fire won't solve anything.
SharkFinn
QUOTE (LifeonMars73 @ Feb 3 2008, 03:16 PM) *
QUOTE
Very few atheists I have met have actually given me a reason why they are atheists. I get all sorts of reasons why they're not Christians, most of which are tied to the Christian right being bigoted and hypocritical and to the Bible being self-contradictory. My assumption, then, which I maybe should not have made, was that atheism was fueled in part in many people by a dislike of Christianity. I understand that there are other reasons; I've just never seen them given.


I'm not quite sure what you're expectations are. It seems that they are giving you perfectly capable answers, you just have a problem dealing with them. For many, if not all, to experience the jump from belief to lack thereof, they must experience the former. Therefore many Atheists are raised in homes where religion, faith and belief played a part, however small. They will live and experience religion before identifying which areas of said religion seem ring hollow or do not sit well with their personal belief system, and then consequently make the jump from belief in a deity to belief such a being does not exist.

Now applying the above to your example, I'm suprised you don't acknowledge the validity of some Atheist reasoning. I'm not asking you to accept this line of thinking, simply acknowledge that it does exist and is comprised of sound reasoning. In your examples the Atheists rejected Christianity for a variety of reasons. You provide the following two: Problems with the man-made organisation of Christianity (specifically relating to the attitudes of Christians in relation to politics, and using politics as a platform to further religious belief) and problems with hypocritical members of the Christian church; and the self contradictory nature of a book claimed to be divinely inspired. Let's go through these three reasons in turn.

1) Matthew 22:21, John 18:36, Acts 5:29. Your mileage may vary, but I interpret these verses as strong advocation for the seperation between Church and State. Now after reading these verses, and viewing the attitudes of the more prominent and outspoken Christians within your political system, could you not see how someone could be disgruntled or jaded? The Bible tells you to preach, and instead some Christians try to force their beliefs on your country. Could this blatant hypocrisy not lead someone to question the divine nature of Christianity, and why your god allows men to corrupt what is apparently holy scripture for material gain?

2) I won't go in to the self-contradiction argument. There are far too many examples, as well as far too many versions of the Bible itself to fully wrangle this one out. One side argues A, the other side argues B and we get nowhere. However the fact these arguments even take place is a sign to some that perhaps the Bible is the work of various men, and not the work of a god.

Atheism can be succinctly described as the belief there is no God, or perhaps more broadly to encompass more than just Christianity, the disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. To believe there is no God, you must first understand the belief in God. Anything else is simply ignorant. You must experience a belief system, or at the very least research them, before you can reject or augment its tenents to match your own personal beliefs.

In actuality this is just the reverse of the many reasons people provide for their belief in Christianity, to use your example. "The world seems hopeless without Christianity." "People have always believed in God and morals." "Look around, the world needs a designer." I could easily dismiss these commonly provided reasons as invalid because they rely on reasons outside of Christianity itself, some even bordering on reasons why the speaker is not Atheist.

Religion, belief and lack thereof is a complex issue, with each facet so closely stitched together. To define light, you have to define dark and vice versa. There's no need to question beliefs, because in the end we all have the same answer. Why are you Christian? Why are you Atheist? Why are you Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Zoroastrianist? For the same simple reason: We believe it to be true.

Back on topic. I'd say completely eliminating religion is a little on the harsh side TED. tongue.gif Destroying a religion, or religion itself would just make it come back stronger. Which is why I will again advocate a method to publically make known the wrongdoings of Scientology. Fighting fire with fire won't solve anything.

I acknowledge the validity of atheist reasoning, and I was not trying to appear as though I wasn't. I would be the first to denounce the activities of the radical Christian right, and, yes, I realize that many passages of the Bible appear to contradict each other. I don't really have a response for the last one, since I don't know what to make of it myself. As for the rest, I appreciate that you, at least, distinguish between those who do these hypocritical things and the religion itself, but again, I can really say very little here. I'm a separation-of-church-and-state guy myself, so I'm not going to contradict your point there.

I will say, however, that I don't know what you mean by the reasons must be within the religion. The hopelessness example you gave is one I feel to be true, yet you say it is an invalid argument because it is less a statement of faith and more a statement of something outside Christianity. First, I would say hope is an essential part of Christianity, or any religion, for that matter. One of the great psychological factors of religion is that it gives people hope (in most cases, anyway). Second, it appears to me (although I could be wrong) that you have contradicted yourself by saying that atheists analyze their religions and reject them on that basis. Is that not an argument outside atheism, or am I just completely nuts?

I would agree that religion should not be destroyed. That does raise an interesting question for me, though. I might have to start a new topic now.
LifeonMars73
I've made myself unclear during my rant. I apologise. This was your original point I took umbrage with:

QUOTE
Very few atheists I have met have actually given me a reason why they are atheists. I get all sorts of reasons why they're not Christians


You basically say that Atheists are wrong and/or deluded because they have no reasons why they are Atheist, simply reasons why they are not Christian. My point was that it's hard to define one without the other.

QUOTE
The hopelessness example you gave is one I feel to be true, yet you say it is an invalid argument because it is less a statement of faith and more a statement of something outside Christianity.


Again, lack of clarity on my part or misunderstanding on yours. I was pointing out how easy it is to dismiss something as invalid when you refuse to acknowledge certain reasons for belief by arguing that they are outside the belief itself. My example, hopelessness, was intended to show that such a reason driving someone to belief must be invalid by your standards, as it relies on personal world view, and nothing actually inherent to Christianity. If Athiests cannot define themselves in relation to other beliefs, then Christians similarly cannot define themselves in relation to anything outwith their tenants. You either accept all forms of belief, or you accept none, because inevitably you will begin to define each in relation to other systems of belief.

QUOTE
Second, it appears to me (although I could be wrong) that you have contradicted yourself by saying that atheists analyze their religions and reject them on that basis. Is that not an argument outside atheism, or am I just completely nuts?


I never said that defining belief in relation to another belief was wrong. You did. You viewed that as an unacceptable reason for belief or faith. Again, my point was that you have to accept definitions of belief from outside their own sources. Just because someone defines their belief from a different perspective than you would like does not invalidate that belief.
Pesmerga
QUOTE (SharkFinn @ Feb 3 2008, 07:33 PM) *
I understand why you might say the "atheists make me sad" comment was patronizing, although that was not my intent. To clarify, atheists make me sad because they aren't going to heaven as long as they remain atheists.


Here we go again. What makes you think that? I don't recall anything like that being written in the "Holy Book."
Christians and their "I believe in God, so that makes me better attitude."
Is there a reason you look down on people?
SharkFinn
Pes, in the future, I would appreciate you reading my posts and trying your hardest not to bring personal and/or spiritual biases into the conversation. For the record, Mark 16:16 has you covered.

As for the rest of this... I could go on and on with you people for days about this, but I just don't have the energy to do so. Believe what you want to believe -- about Jesus, about religion, about me -- I'm just sick of having my posts scanned for messages that aren't there and having assumptions drawn about me. I'd just as soon not bother answering your concerns, because if I do, it will just start this endless downward spiral of never-ending banter about how I'm such a terrible person because I look down on all the rest of you for being non-Christians and about how I keep contradicting myself. It's just not worth the time and energy it takes to respond to all of you because it won't do any good. Your minds won't change because I told them to, so pretty much all I can do at this point is to continue to pray for you and for myself.
Seluna
Lol, I find it funny that a discussion on hackers vs Scientology can veer into something to do with Christianity, again. Take your Christianity and Atheist discussion somewhere else please.

I did some reading about Scientology and it really sounds like a cult with its methods and secrecy. Especially in trying to bring down or defame all who are critical of it. But at the same time, Anonymous's methods aren't particularly nice either. Fighting fire with fire may work, but there's the chance of being charged with arson later. But in any case, I think this war thing did something in that more people like me are learning about Scientology and has less of a chance of getting in something that really sounds like a total scam.
LifeonMars73
QUOTE (SharkFinn @ Feb 4 2008, 03:50 AM) *
As for the rest of this... I could go on and on with you people for days about this, but I just don't have the energy to do so. Believe what you want to believe -- about Jesus, about religion, about me -- I'm just sick of having my posts scanned for messages that aren't there and having assumptions drawn about me. I'd just as soon not bother answering your concerns, because if I do, it will just start this endless downward spiral of never-ending banter about how I'm such a terrible person because I look down on all the rest of you for being non-Christians and about how I keep contradicting myself. It's just not worth the time and energy it takes to respond to all of you because it won't do any good. Your minds won't change because I told them to, so pretty much all I can do at this point is to continue to pray for you and for myself.


Such is the nature of a written debate. Your post will be scanned and things inferred due to lack of tone and emphasis found in verbal debate. If you don't like it you may have to find another medium.

Perhaps you need to focus on your spirituality more. When you can't be bothered responding to concerns about Christianity then you're no longer a good witness. I went through the same stage and ended up with slightly different beliefs, but if Christianity truly makes you whole, as it were, then you should talk things over with your local church leader. Go back to basics.

Hmmm, I may have been unduly harsh in pointing out your statement could come across as patronising. If so you have my apologies. Sometimes some personal views are better left unsaid, or said in a less reactionary manner. Your comment about praying for us, for example, irked me slightly. You meant well, that is without question, but some comments are better left unspoken.

All in all, I'd hate to see someone who provides an excellent counter view to many an argument give up just because of a few comments. Weather through. You'd provide a better example that way than by simply giving up. smile.gif

As for Scientology, I'd hope that anyone with a modicum of sense would realise that paying for enlightenment or happiness is an idea doomed to failure, and such a scheme is unlikely to be undertaken by those with mankinds best interest at heart. Once again I have to advocate rational presentation of the facts about Scientology to the public, along with the illegalities commitied. I believe Time magazine did a good piece a while back. Perhaps someone should do the same again. Don't let them play the "misunderstood" or "religious persecution" cards.
The Evil Dead
QUOTE (Mars)
Back on topic. I'd say completely eliminating religion is a little on the harsh side TED. tongue.gif Destroying a religion, or religion itself would just make it come back stronger. Which is why I will again advocate a method to publically make known the wrongdoings of Scientology. Fighting fire with fire won't solve anything.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I believe all religion hinders our progression and limits our thoughts and understanding as beings on this planet.
Pesmerga
QUOTE (SharkFinn @ Feb 4 2008, 03:50 AM) *
Pes, in the future, I would appreciate you reading my posts and trying your hardest not to bring personal and/or spiritual biases into the conversation. For the record, Mark 16:16 has you covered.


Oh yeah, Mark, The New Testament. Funny enough that those texts, about the commission in Mark 16 where never found in the oldest Greek manuscripts.
Plus you didn't answer my question.
LifeonMars73
QUOTE (The Evil Dead @ Feb 4 2008, 06:01 AM) *
I'm sorry you feel that way. I believe all religion hinders our progression and limits our thoughts and understanding as beings on this planet.


Perhaps it does. It's brought us a great many things thus far, though it's tangible contributions have waned in recent years. However eliminating religion, including the glorified pyramid scheme for Hollywood socialite nutjobs known as the Church of Scientology is far more harmful. Curtailing freedoms of speech and expression is not the way to go.
SharkFinn
QUOTE (Seluna @ Feb 3 2008, 10:09 PM) *
Lol, I find it funny that a discussion on hackers vs Scientology can veer into something to do with Christianity, again. Take your Christianity and Atheist discussion somewhere else please.

I would, but that would require taking all the posts from earlier and putting them in the topic as well, and I don't have 1337 m0d p0w3rz. Until somebody separates the topic, I guess you're stuck with our jibber-jabber. Sorry Sel.

QUOTE (LifeonMars73 @ Feb 3 2008, 10:09 PM) *
QUOTE (SharkFinn @ Feb 4 2008, 03:50 AM) *
As for the rest of this... I could go on and on with you people for days about this, but I just don't have the energy to do so. Believe what you want to believe -- about Jesus, about religion, about me -- I'm just sick of having my posts scanned for messages that aren't there and having assumptions drawn about me. I'd just as soon not bother answering your concerns, because if I do, it will just start this endless downward spiral of never-ending banter about how I'm such a terrible person because I look down on all the rest of you for being non-Christians and about how I keep contradicting myself. It's just not worth the time and energy it takes to respond to all of you because it won't do any good. Your minds won't change because I told them to, so pretty much all I can do at this point is to continue to pray for you and for myself.


Such is the nature of a written debate. Your post will be scanned and things inferred due to lack of tone and emphasis found in verbal debate. If you don't like it you may have to find another medium.

Perhaps you need to focus on your spirituality more. When you can't be bothered responding to concerns about Christianity then you're no longer a good witness. I went through the same stage and ended up with slightly different beliefs, but if Christianity truly makes you whole, as it were, then you should talk things over with your local church leader. Go back to basics.

Hmmm, I may have been unduly harsh in pointing out your statement could come across as patronising. If so you have my apologies. Sometimes some personal views are better left unsaid, or said in a less reactionary manner. Your comment about praying for us, for example, irked me slightly. You meant well, that is without question, but some comments are better left unspoken.

All in all, I'd hate to see someone who provides an excellent counter view to many an argument give up just because of a few comments. Weather through. You'd provide a better example that way than by simply giving up. smile.gif

I don't really have any other outlets, so I think I just need to learn to be more resilient. I've put people on ignore over this debate and previous debates which turned into flaming and loaded questions. Perhaps I shouldn't, but I'm still rather weak at this point, and I'm not ready to do anything differently.

I know full well I need to focus on my spirituality more. I don't do very many of the things a good Christian should do. I go to church every Sunday and Wednesday, pray every night, and try to be a "good person," but that's about it. That said, I'm uncomfortable talking to my local church leader; his sermons are often lawful, and they make me uneasy. I'll try talking to other spiritual people I know though.

I don't think you were harsh at all in telling me I was being patronizing. While that was not my intent, I should have known that they would be read that way. Same with the "I'll pray for you" thing. I did actually know that would be read as such, but I felt it needed to be said.

This is good experience for me. Maybe someday I'll be able to do some actual good thanks to what I've learned here.

Pes, the short answer is because I'm a sinner. Despite my efforts, I will do things like that. The comment in question, however, is not meant to be patronizing, and therefore, I do not appreciate the basis of your question. I could ask you just as easily why you look down on me knowing full well your answer is, at its base, the same as mine.
Pesmerga
I never said I looked down on Christians. I just get annoyed with the way Christians talk, patronizing without even realizing it, talking down on people without even realizing it.
You did the same thing, and even though you say it wasn't your intention, you still said it.
As I said in a post before, this girl could tell me in my face that I wouldn't go to Heaven, even if I lead my life as good, or better than hers, simply because I am not a Christian. I never really noticed it before that, but everytime you hear a Christian talk, you get these kind of answers.

Now, not to sound like a total Christian basher, I did spend 3 years of my life on a Christian school, as it was closest to my house, and have a good knowledge, about how it is.
In my opinion, the New Testament is taken out of proportion, way too much. If there's anything fancy about the book, it is the Old Testament.
Noir
Can we go back to making fun of Scientology now? Xenu is ##### coming.
The Evil Dead
I always found the idea of being spawned from people who were made from a rib to be more entertaining.
SonicX_Zero
Some things never change.
Any post after this that doesn't relate with the topic will get deleted... or maybe the topic itself will get pruned... who knows? As what Sel already mentioned take it somewhere else.
=)
Monty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y

Noir check this out. It is what actual Scientologist's do. They attack rather than defend.
Noir
What are your crimes Monty? What are you afraid of? YOU ARE IN LEAGUE WITH XENU. BYE.

On a serious note, that video made them seem even worse to me. I read too much about them, they need to go down now. The very fact that they exist amazes me. Did the German ban on Scientology ever go through? I could totally live off of beer and sausage.
Bomb
QUOTE (Noir @ Feb 5 2008, 08:18 PM) *
Can we go back to making fun of Scientology now? Xenu is ##### coming.

He sure ##### is. Check out the domino effect going on:
http://www.nysun.com/article/70957
So now the IRS is finally having to face up to its unexplained favortism of Scientologists.

Even Fricking Newsweek is covering Anonymous now:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/109410
(Also on the front page of MSNBC.com right now)



QUOTE
And on Feb. 10, Anonymous--which one member estimates to comprise 9,000 people--plans protests at Scientology sites worldwide

laugh.gif
[img]http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/c8/HIS_POWER_LEVEL_IT[/img]

I hope the rallies on the 10th don't flop.
Rhadamanthus
They most likely will.
That won't stop me though.
Noir
QUOTE (Bomb @ Feb 8 2008, 08:10 PM) *
QUOTE
And on Feb. 10, Anonymous--which one member estimates to comprise 9,000 people--plans protests at Scientology sites worldwide



omg.. I'm in tears laughing. Hahahah.

But yes, sadly, it will probably flop. But the attention they are bringing to CoS will likely cripple it in the long run. They were good at suppressing those who do not agree with them, let's see how they do against a nameless, faceless enemy.
Pesmerga
QUOTE (Monty @ Feb 6 2008, 03:07 PM) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y

Noir check this out. It is what actual Scientologist's do. They attack rather than defend.


WHAT ARE YOUR CRIMES???!?

Haha, dicks.
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