Okay I know the best FF villain in most people's opinion is Kefka... so let's evaluate the NEWER FF games and their villains. Do they fill the role? (Just trying to liven up the forum a bit)


For me? I say Vayne and Shuyin. Heres why for Vayne:

1. Killed both of his older brothers for their treason to ursurp the throne.
2. Killed his own father to take control of the throne for himself.
3. Framed Basch for killing the Nalbina King.
4. Orders Bergan and Gabranth to kill Judge Drace for only accusing Vayne of killing his father (which he did).
5. At the end, realizing he's gonna die, he decides to merge with the airship with his powers to kill as many people as possible.

Yet at the same time his motive weren't terrible. Rozarria was a competing country and he wanted to conquer all their enemies, and wanted to become the new Dynast King so that the human race could gain independence from the Occuria. Which is why I love him, he actually had a reasonable motive, yet did terrible things in the process to get it.

Shuyin:
I just liked how Shuyin was a lingering spirit, trying to get revenge for love. Like, instead of getting all depressed and quiet when their love disappears (Like Vincent Valentine, although Vincent's still the SH*T), Shuyin goes on a rampage. Yet when he was alive, he tried to do something kinda good. He wanted to activate Vegnagun to end the war so that his love wouldn't have to fight on the frontlines anymore. I just give him props cause something about him I liked.

I also REALLY really liked Deep Ground. THey were just badass and had some interesting motive to destroy the planet.


Ultemecia was crap. Necron was crap. Kuja wasn't bad, not my fav tho. Seymour didnt cut the mustard for me. Sephiroth is AWESOME, but his "going crazy" just didn't really seem like a good motive to me. PLus, I'm sure along the way he found out Jenova WASNT an Ancient, that she was really somebody to destroy the planet. So why wasnt he just like... "Okay, im not part of the chosen race,and im not literally her son, so what the hell am i doing?" Awesome character, love him, but definitel flaws.

I’d go with Vayne myself, though FFXII is the only one I’ve played in length. He’s rather suave and, as the story itself is more subtle and not like most other FFs where it’s a distinguished “bad guy” vs. “good guy”, he is a bit more in depth (as are...most of the other characters). I dunno. I haven’t actually finished the game yet, so I don’t know what he ends up as, but as of the moment, I like where he’s going as far as character/plot development is concerned. He actually seems like he *has* a reason for doing what he does, instead of just being some typical bad-guy who just naturally has a trait for bloodshed, as is mostly the case. He’s “normal”.

If your talking about post-FFVI FFs then you've forgotten my favourite villain. Jenova... I will forever spawn my theory that Jenova was the real villain of FFVII and Sephiroth was just her puppet. Everything he did was by the will of Jenova even though he believed it was his own will.


Jenova controlled people in two ways... the first was by manipulating the genes inside her victim which meant that she could manipulate their body (Such as Controlling Cloud and making him give up the black materia at the temple against his will) but the other way was through psychological manipulation. Sephiroth had a big sword but Jenova was the real brains. This is why I liked Jenova so much... although she could have controlled Clouds body, she instead created a whole ruse and a complex mind ##### to get Cloud to give Sephiroth the black materia in the northern cave by his own will). She's a master of illusions, afterall not all of the characters had Jenova's cells implanted in them and yet they all saw her illusions and believed them... So much so that another party member gave up the black materia willingly because of her impersonation of Tifa.

The black materia is given up a total of 3 times, twice willingly by your characters even after it's established how the materia will destroy the world. Jenova is cunning and deceptive but also very intelligent and observant. Is it really no real shock that even if Sephiroth discovered that he wasn't literally her Son (although I think he knew that from the books anyway) and that he wasn't an ancient that Jenova could manipulate him psychologically to still be her slave.

Jenovas role in FFVII is very much downplayed but it's obvious to me that she real is the villain... after all the Man in the black cape is actually just Jenova... Sephiroth isn't even awake until part-way through the second disk.

Oh and if anyone throws that Ultimania guide book quote at me then they can just bugger right off... that's the most fan-serviced line every written. It's a shame Sephiroth is the most marketable character ever... he really did steal the spotlight... I wouldn't be surprised if in the (hopefully not too soon but somewhat inevitable) remake they rewrote some of the script to make Sephiroth more powerful and take away Jenova's role... Grr...

Flame you're right, technically. But that's exactly why I wrote "Sephiroth" instead of Jenova. Because he's the one who steals the spotlight. And because they're both compliments of each other, when I say Sephiroth, it's assumed I also mean Jenova. They're symiotic in the way that thye both need each other.

Jenova is WICKED downplayed in the games though, and Seph is given way more credit. Personally, I think it makes Sephiroth MORE deep if he doesn't have control of his actions (this seems contradcitory, cause ud assume that since hes not in control of his actions whatever he does isnt reall him, its someone else). BUT, if Jenova wasn't controlling him, then he's the worst villain ever cause he has absolutely NO GOOD MOTIVE to try to destroy the world.

At LEAST with Jenova controlling him you can say, "Yeah his motive is to destroy the world because he's just her puppet." But the moment u say, "Nah Sephiroth doesn't need Jenova, he was just using her". Then the question becomes, why the F*ck is he doing all the stuff he's doing then?

So yes, I support Jenova theory, especially as it's the ONLY way that Sephiroth will EVER return

Okay, I've done this a few times before, so I'm gonna keep it brief. I'll just give my feelings on the ones listed here. And btw, spoilers included.

Ultimecia: She could have been interesting, I support the theory that she is in fact Rinoa. But all we really get is a weird sorceress with a funny accent ("Kurse all SeeDs!"). Down the trash bin with her.

Sephiroth: God, no. He's such a mama's boy. =P

Seymour: I like Seymour; I like the fact that even after his dead, he just comes back for more and uses the power of death to transform into fiend-like monstrosities. His story, although rather vague, interested me. He's not my favorite , though.

Seifer: I never cared much for Seifer. But I do like the way his story concludes. Nonetheless, down the trash bin with him.

Jecht: I don't consider him a villain, but I don't like him very much either way. Down the trash bin he goes.

Vayne: He failed to impress me. As a matter of fact, I can't even remember anything about him other than the over-the-top end battles with him. FFXII as a whole gave me sort of a "whatever" feeling storywise, so I can't say much else about it.

Shuyin: A teenage boy with messed up feelings. I'm not sure if I should really consider him a villain or not. Buet either way, Trema was a more worthy opponent in that game. =p

The Turks: Ah, I love these guys! It's one of FFVII's more interesting points, if you ask me. And their leader, Rufus: I'm a very big Rufus fan. Hot blond guy, white coat, shotgun, hairflip! He's got it all. xP Uhm yeah, go Turks! But they're not getting my vote either. =P

Kuja: Hello there! Good looking and wicked! I like his story and how it concluded, and before anyone asks: on my first playthrough I did not notice the thong! xP But even if Kuja wasn't a hottie, I'd still like him (as a villain) for his wicked personality.

Necron: Down the trash bin.

Genesis: I'm not sure, is Genesis the character that appears in Dirge of Cerberus' secret ending? If not, my bad. Nothing else to say about this one, I haven't seen that ending.

Deep Ground: None of the members struck me as interesting, down the trash bin with Deep Ground.

PS: May I ask why Hojo isn't on the list? He was in both FFVII and DoC, and his role is quite big (not that it matters, Kuja still gets my vote).

Zidane.
The way he pissed all over FF9 and the two Andrew Jacksons I required to obtain it was incredible.

What no FFT?

My vote goes to Cedarg, killed his father, killed his brother, killed Prince Larg (his best friend), turned into a Zodiac Monster, and tried to kill his half brother (Ramza). That's pretty devious if you ask me.

I voted Sephiroth and for the record I strongly disagree with the (now disproved) theory that Jenova controlled him and yes like it or not I'm chucking this straight in there, the official Final Fantasy VII Ultimania confirms that Sephiroth is the one in control and not Jenova. So since that's the official word from Square (as well confirming what I have always believed all along) there's nothing left to speculate since its sole intention was to answer all the speculative questions as well clear up some peoples confusion. So whether people wanted Jenova to be the one in control is irrelevant since Square officially and obviously Kazushige Nojima(the writer of FFVII and Crisis Core) confirmed otherwise. *shrugs*I just don't understand why people can't seem to get over that we've been told what the score is by the series' creators so just accept it for what it is.



What more can be said? Fan serviced or not the corrections came directly from the writers and the creators themselves so I'd rather go with what started as my own opinion and was later proven via Square. I mean if you misinterpreted a book you read and the books writer set you straight then shouldn't you accept the writers word on the matter? I just can't see the logic in disagreeing with the writer just because what he/she said conflicts with your original opinion.

As I said... it may be canon NOW that Sephiroth controlled Jenova but I am far from convinced that it was the writer's original intention. Sephiroth is one of the most marketable characters, so it's quite obvious that they aren't going to go saying "actually he isn't really as cool as he seems" because that's just a bad marketing strategy. You can tell by the way that Sephy was splashed all over the Advent Children media. If you have a character like that, you are NOT going to then turn around and say that he wasn't even the real villain.

I go by the source material only, and until I see any quote from FFVII (English or Japanese version) saying that Sephiroth controlled Jenova (or even an implication of some sort) then I'm not convinced. We know full well that Jenova could control people and we saw it plenty of times. What I would really love to do is read the original japanese script because the American one doesn't really make a whole lot of sense on the Jenova-Sephiroth complex. I mean, we follow Jenova throughout the first half of the game, in sephiroth's form whilst referring to herself in third person.

I still like to believe that it was the original intentions that Jenova controlled Sephiroth... afterall Sephiroth never seemed to have much of a strong will, he became dependant on Jenova and sort after his mother... but whatever...

Well, yeah I see where you're coming from and we could probably go back and forth all day with reasons and counter reasons, but I'm the same as you I'll retain my opinion from way back in 1997 which for me happens to coincide with what Square are saying now, but yeah it'd be cool to see the original script.

Just to add a piece of information:

The first Final Fantasy VII version isn't the same as the American version. The Japanese version got some changes, both to battle system and storyline before it was send overseas.
God knows what was in that original storyline.

No cloudycat is right, the Ultimania guide DOES say that Sephiroth's will was stronger than Jenova's.

I personally think it's stupid, becuase every fact and motive and attack points to Jenova being in control (Hell, its even true in Advent Chidlren, she's the one who's cells cause the reunion and she's the one who is Geostigma, it just so HAPPENS that Sephiroth embodies her).

PLUS, it's stupid becaue it makes Sephiroth retarded because then he would have no motive to destroy the world. SO yes, the Ultimania guide syas that Sephiroth uses her to his advantage, but due to every other fact in the game and in the movie, I still say that he's the one being controlled. I think they said that in Ultimania just to appease hardcore Sephiroth fans, nothing more.



And you're right Soul_Taker, I did forget FFT and ur absolutely right, becuase Dycedarg and Delita are some of my favorite villains of any game of any time, cant understand why I forgot that...

wasn't his motive in VII merely power? I seem to remember Sephiroth wanting to inherit the power of the planet by making meteor hit the planet, at which point the lifestream would focus all its power and whatnot on the "wound" created by meteor. Then, Sephiroth would absorb all the power the lifestream put into healing the wound and thus become a god. Thats what I always thought his motive was, but maybe there was more to it than that.

Well according the Ultamania


So in other words Sephiroth just wanted to kill a lot of people in what? Revenge? Nice... So Ultimania is just completely ignoring the whole Wounding the planet in order to gather all the lifestream to one place because in fact Sephiroth just did the whole thing for Revenge?

Well we KNOW that isn't true... Everything Sephiroth did has always been for "Mother". Although You really have to look more deeply into that sentence... His ambitions were fueled by it it's "parasitic instincts"... What does that mean exactly. Jenova's parasitic instincts? Isn't this just another way of saying that Jenova used his burning ambition to destroy all the humans he despised to make him do what she wanted him to do?

Either way I still think who was controlling who is up in the air and can be argued either way. The ultimania guide is about as useful as subtitles to a blind person in actually answering the question though.

Still... my answer to favourite Villain is Jenova, and not Sephiroth...

Sephiroth also wanted to gather all the lifestream in one place in order to become a god via his own twisted logic and motivations and yes one of them was revenge. I find that no less viable than a blue alien called Jenova landed on the planet to destroy it.

Also It was Sephiroth who absorbed Jenova not the other way around, if Sephiroth was simply just a host and Jenova was the more powerful of the two then why didn't she just manifest into the ultimate being and not Sephiroth? And again, why was Sephiroth the one who killed Aerith why couldn't Jenova take her own form? Sephiroth used Jenovas cells to create a manifestation of himself to kill her.

Plus if Cloud could overcome Jenovas mind control in order to fight both Jenova and Sephiroth in the end then why couldn't Sephiroth at his own will?



I really can't see how you came to that conclusion in Advent Children of all things? "In the movie Sephiroth reveals his intent to use those that die of Geostigma to bend the Lifestream to his will take over the Planet and use it to travel to another world, thereby repeating the cycle started by Jenova" in other words it's Sephiroth who's making the choice to finish what Mother started..

Another reason why there's no way Jenova is perceived to be the more powerful of the two in the movie is straight from director and producers mouths on the AC DVD making of documentary - "Kitase said that Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him." and "Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."

Yes, it's Jenovas cells who cause the reunion but who absorbs them? Answer Sephiroth, again to reiterate the sme point if Sephiroth was simply just a host for Jenova then why didn't Jenova just manifest herself and take over Sephiroths body in FFVII like Sephiroth did to Kadaj in Advent Children?

Anyway as Flame said there's strong arguments on both sides of the spectrum I just find the Jenova argument a little thin compared to the Sephiroth one especially since it creates more questions than answers. I'll just go with what I have been thinking for the last ten years especially since that's what the games writers have confirmed now.

You have any idea how hard this selection is without the option of choosing Kefka? Choosing someone else besides Kefka was incredibly hard. That and many later Final Fantasy games have like 2 bosses. Like in IX, you are after the Queen and then suddenly, Kuja is the main bad guy and then you battle Necron at the end.

For me, it was between Sephiroth and Seymour. They are both evil and they both have some obvious character flaws. I choose Seymour because making fun of him is way too funny. Just too easy. Also, killing him in like 3/4 hits is always greatness. Plus, I like his theme better.

i picked the turks

I am with Flame here. I have always believed, ever since I first played the game, that Sephiroth was a puppet.
The game clearly indicates so, this comes from various sources given to you in the game, whereas it isn't always the case with Sephiroth. Most of the time, you have to assume, or things are told from sources not in the game.

Just to repeat a famous quote by Cloud at the end (which is along these lines, as I can't recall the exact quote): "So it wasn't Sephiroth we were after all?"
Cloud realized at the end of the game, but just as Flame, I believe that the guides now exist, solely to make the fans happy.

As I said before, the original Japanese game was slightly different and had its storyline changed, how much I do not know, but still, things have changed.
Also, why so long to release the Ultimania Guides? Why wait so long?

Sephiroth has cool looks and all, but I seriously think they made him into something he is not. After all, developers want the money and I am pretty sure Sephiroth sells a million times more than Jenova does.

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion, this is just my 2 cents. Well, Flame thinks the same about Sephiroth and so does Hiku and I believe there were several others on this forum.

Actually, cloudycat brought up two points that make me indecisive between Sephiroth controlling or being controlled.

He asked why Cloud could overcome Jenova's control, yet Sephiroth would not be able to. This is a question that I can't answer (maybe someone can) showing that Sephiroth could have been in control.

He also stated that in Advent Children, Sephiroth wanted to use the planet as transportation to finish what his "mother" started. Now this makes me actually think that Jenova was in control because it seems more likely for Jenova to take control of the most powerful man in the world. If Sephiroth were in control, it is a good bet that he would have found out sooner or later that he was not truly the son of Jenova and that Jenova is really just an alien being bent on destroying the world.

To be honest, I think that the idea that Jenova is in control makes the plot more interesting, but it really can be argued either way. Clues in the game (and compilations it seems) leads us to believe that Jenova was in control, but the official word of square, which could easily just be pleasing fans, is that Sephiroth is in control. Maybe someday we'll know for sure.

Well, a point that has been brought up by Hiku some time ago in a different topic.
Why doesn't Sephiroth recognise Cloud? They both went on missions together and Cloud killed Sephiroth.
Sephiroth claims he doesn't know Cloud, or that he is 5 years old, or something along those lines.
We know for a fact that Cloud is carrying the Jenova cells for five years and that Jenova can read her own cells and because Cloud only has those cells for a short period of time, Jenova didn't knew anything about Cloud before that time.
Sephiroth does know Cloud, as they went on missions together and he got killed by him.

That wasn't quite at the end it was before they discovered Sephiroth in that cocoon thing, and It was Tifa asking a question not making a statement to which Cloud shook his head and said he'll explain later - although i'm not sure he does.

Lines directly from Final Fantasy VII the game I'll underline parts I think are key to support my opinion.

Hojo
"But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it
was all Sephiroth's doing."
"Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the
Lifestream; he wants to maniplate the Clones himself." - Not Jenova

Hojo
"I wondered where the clones were going, but I was never able to
figure it out."

Hojo
"The one thing that I did know was that Sephiroth was at their
final destinations." - Not Jenova

Hojo
"Did you see it!! It's Sephiroth! So he IS here!"

(They all turn to face him.)

Hojo
"This is perfect! Both Jenova's Reunion and Sephiroth's will!" - Not Jenova's Will
"They won't be diffused into the Lifestream,"
"but gathered here! Mwa, haa, ha,....."

Cloud
"The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my
own weaknesses are what created me."
"Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud."

The constant references to Sephiroths strong will hardly make him a candidate for a "puppet".

Hojo
"Show me...... Sephiroth."
"It should be near..."
"Ha, ha, ha...... Go beyond the powers of science..."
"Before your presence, science is powerless..."
"I hate it, but I'll concede to it."
"Just... let me see it."
"Ha, ha, ha......"

Cloud
"This is our last battle."
"Our target is the North Cave. Our enemy is...... Sephiroth!"

If Jenova is the one in control, then why is it you still have defeat Sephiroth after you destroy her final form Jenova-Synthsis? Surely if she's destroyed then Sephiroth is no longer under her control? Again more questions sparked by the Jenova theory than the Sephiroth one.

Another question is if it's Jenova that's in control then why does she keep referring to herself as another person saying such things as "Jenova will join the reunion" etc? I wouldn't even call that talking in third person about oneself. Jenova just feels more like a plot device to me than an actual character. At best I can probably accept that the minds of both Sephiroth and Jenova joining but I still see Sephiroth as the dominant will of the two.

I suggest you guys have a glance through the entire script of the game and you shall see that there are much more references to Sephiroth's control and power than Jenova's. With exception to one line I can think of where he says "I'm under orders to take back the Promised Land". To be honest I'm quite confident I've played this game more than most on this forum, and I'm happy sticking to my opinion.



My interpretation was Sephiroth was playing mind games.

It does really surprise me how split down the middle people are about this game I never realised until now. I've always thought what I thought and never really knew of other peoples different outlook on the games plot it just goes to show the impact of the game over ten years later fan or not.

No one compares, especially the " newschool " villains.

Yeah, but that is what I meant earlier. You have to assume that Sephiroth was playing mindgames, which is something not given to you in the game, yet the point I pointed is given to you in the game directly. It is a facts proven in the game.

Also, CLoud clearly states that Jenova is doing all the mind manipulation. Not sure when he said it, but he did. If you say that it was around the middle, I'll take your word for it, but it doesn't change the words. Cloud at that point realized it was about Jenova and not Sephiroth.

Also, Hojo does indeed also say those things. However, the same Hojo also believes that Jenova was an Ancient and made a terrible mistake in that. How far can we trust this man? It is quote obvious in this game that he isn't 100% and therefore he could've been mistaken, quite easily, as he was mistaken before.

And yeah, you'd be surprised how far this theory goes, especially on this forum. It is really interesting, as the Jenova theory gives you an entire different point of view of the game and explains many of the plotholes, without using external information.

Mind you, I am not trying to change our oppinion, but just informing you about the Jenova theory that exists on this board. Well, I think you know it already.

Take a closer look at the final boss fights... No one seems to ask the question why Sephiroth is so deformed and mutated... or even why he has two heads.. Synethesis was not her final form.

All quotes from Hojo? Well I guess they are quotes still..


I'll agree that this is maybe evidence that he is struggling to gain more power then Jenova but doesn't show that he HAS... Jenova has no problem manipulating clones herself... Hell there is even theories that she manipulated Cloud into freeing her and killing President Shinra. It's just a strange sentence... if it proved he had control over Jenova then it would read "He minipulates the clones himself" not "He wants to".



What does this prove? Of course Sephiroth would be at the destination... It's the reunion. The original who is obviously most compatible with Jenova isn't going to miss out on it. Jenova was also at their final Destination. Also you must take into consideration that the sephiroth that Hojo is referring to is most likely Jenova. Afterall Jenova is the black caped man that they chase.
Edit: Pes brings up a brilliant point I'd forgotten, Hojo did believe Jenova to be an ancient. His information doesn't seem to be 100% accurate.

Yes Sephiroth had a strong will (albeit he was completely dependant upon Jenova) and it was through his strong will that Jenova was almost able to achieve her goals. Through her mind minipulation she had created Sephiroth's rage. Sephy is a being determined to do anything for her but with a strong will. Maybe if he had turned against Jenova then he may have been able to take control... but as far as we can tell inscript, he never did. There is no hint of a power-struggle, only his determination to do anything for Jenova. Maybe Sephiroth is stronger, in all likely hood he is, but Jenova still managed to control him.


This works both ways... If it's true the other way round then how comes Cloud could overcome Sephiroth's control but Jenova couldn't? To really understand Jenova's power you have to take into consideration Gast's interviews in the Snow Cabin. Her power is undeniably immense, and Sephiroth is only Human borrowing her powers.

The Sephiroth theory brings up just as many questions as the Jenova theory... such as if the whole way through Sephiroth retained his own conscientiousness and his own will... then why did he go mad in the first place? What are his motives for the reunion? At what point does he fight with Jenova AND win? Why would he fight Jenova who he seems to love and devote himself to wholly? It simply doesn't make sense.

No matter how you look at it, FFVII is just too ambiguous to prove it either way... For all we know, neither one was a puppet and instead only in union. I've played FFVII more times then I'd like to think and I just can't believe that Jenova would lose control to Sephiroth, not when the whole way through the game Jenova is referred to as being so damn powerful... I'm planning to replay soon, so next time I do I'll keep an open mind and see what I come up with.

cloudycat actually proved his point well for me, better than most ppl I've seen, just because those quotes do say a lot.

The only reason why I ever really thought it's Jenova controlling Sephiroth, was because Sephiroth was just in North Crater the whole time. It seemed like he broke Jenova out, and then once he got a piece of her free, she used his body to keep on trying to destroy the planet.

But then you could argue, "Why would she need Sephiroth's body? She's a master shape shift and clearly has her own forms throughout the game, so why even assume Sephiroth's body?"

So yes, the topic is very ambiguous, the ONLY reason why I like the Jenova theory is because it at least gives Sephiroth some plausible reason for his actions. Because if HE"S the one in control, then he would have known that Jenova is not his real mother, nor that he is an ancient, nor that he has to complete anything Jenova did in the flrst place anyways, so his motives become so pointless its ridiculous.

I can understand if Sephiroth goes crazy and wants revenge on ShinRa for what they did to him, but if he's in control I just can't understand why he wants to destroy the planet so badly, or at least use it as some transportation device to go to some other world.

Just to add to Flame's post.
Isn't it also quite odd that Sephiroth, who at the time he goes mad (caused by Jenova cell's reacting to her body), first goes from helping "mother" to "world domination" in the blink of an eye?

I mean, if we take 2 simple facts here, given to you by the game:

1. Jenova is an alien that crashlanded here, to dominate the planet. She was out for world domination.
2. While she landed, she met with the Ancients. She appeared friendly, so she could get close enough and infect them and did whatever she wanted with them. Manipulated them into killing themselves.

This proves that Jenova had 2 things the Sephiroth had, after he came back from the Lifestream.
The game does not tell you anything about a power struggle, this is information given to you externally and I fail to see how that counts as official information. Sure, it comes from Square and its writers, but it is an external book.
For Jenova, however, you do not need additional information and assuming, as you already know what she's capable of.
We know she can talk to her cells and control her cells and, unlucky for Sephiroth, he got them since his birth.
The guide says that, because of that, he knew how to master them or such, which is kinda odd for a human, to master cells from an alien. The game clearly indicates Sephiroth as a strong warrior, but not as a godmodding, flying, teleporting, mind controlling, floating man. However, we can simply understand Jenova being able to do these things.

Laguna, just to repeat myself, in case you missed my comment: Hojo also thought that Jenova was an ancient. How accurate can Hojo be? He already made a clear mistake about Jenova once.

Hmm look at how much work there is to prove Sephiroth is the ultimate bad*ss or ultimate wuss. Guess he's a fan favorite no matter what you think, because subconsciously you probably think he's fairly cool.

Anyways Vayne was pretty good, but not enough. Necron, Ultimecia, Shuyin, and Jecht really don't mean much.

Seymour was interesting, but I don't remember him too well, he didn't make an impact on me. I'm a big fan of Seifer since he's a thorn throughout the whole game and I actually liked him more than Squall.

Kuja is very interesting too and I actually remembered and liked him.

All in all though I have to say I'd go with the Turks. They've been my favorite since I first battled Reno back in '97. I actually completely enjoyed fighting them. They're quotes and the whole mystery of them was great. Wait what's this Vincent was one of the Turks too? Just gives me more of the craziness of them. I'm glad you fought them so often, they were interesting and yet I know almost nothing about them.

Except it wasn't Hojo who said she was an ancient it was Professor Gast. Gast was head of research, Gast named her and Gast wrongfully identified her as an ancient. So Hojo wasn't the one who made the mistake at all. So what I underlined is still valid.


I wouldn't say he clearly stated it -

Cloud
"Jenova's cells..."
"...hmm. So that's what this is all about."
"The Jenova Reunion..."

Tifa
"Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we
were after?" - Obviously talking about the fact that they were fighting manifestations of Sephiroth in Jenovas bodyparts

(He shakes his head)

Cloud
"I'll explain later. Right now, the only thing I'm thinking about
is beating Sephiroth."

Tifa
"But Sephiroth is..."

Cloud
"He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here." - Again letting us know they weren't fighting the ACTUAL Sephiroth but manifestations of him. Which leads to the next scene showing the real Sephiroth
"It's both incredibly wicked and cruel..."
"But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within
this planet's wound."

It was exactly as I said it was. Tifa asked the question(not made a statement) Cloud shook his head and never gave a straight answer by saying he'll explain later, I wouldn't say that was very clear personally.



Yet Sephiroths very name alludes the evolution of God - Plus, Cloud floated at some point too. Not to mention that from the get go Sephiroth was hardly just a human even before he originally died he was obviously superhuman due to the experiements.



Interesting point about the two heads, but only Bizarro Sephiroth had two heads. Sephiroths ultimate form Seraph(mistranslated as Safer) Sephiroth however, did not have two heads. I'm sure the idea is Sephiroth ascended once he absorbed all that power.



Regarding Sephiroths ultimate form and inspirations
"Sepher" is Hebrew for "book," while "Sephiroth" is Hebrew for "Numbers," and, thus, the boss's name translates to "Numbers Book," or, more accurately, "Book of Numbers." The Book of Numbers is one of the many Kabbalistic references in Final Fantasy VII, it being the name of a book of the Torah, as well as a book of the Bible. The Sepher Sephiroth is a Kabbalistic treatise concerning the evolution of God from a being of inactive rest to one of active creation. It deals with the ten Sephirot, a central concept of the Kabbalah. This may relate to the origins and purpose of Jenova or the Lifestream, and the concept of "numbers" most obviously alludes to Sephiroth's "clones," each bearing a numbered tattoo.

/\ With that in mind and with obvious religious references to how the character was created in the first place I really can't see how Jenova would be the ultimate, that makes sense to me especially in regard to the reunion.



Well, the cells in Sephiroths body weren't exactly good to begin with and that accompanied with the shock of discovering who he is by his own will - lets remember Sephiroth ultimately made the decision to discover the truth about Jenova and his past via reading the lab books - all of which could have acted as a trigger point for his madness. Also I wasn't saying there was a power struggle I am saying he became one with Jenova (ie the two heads) but he was the more dominant of the two mentally meaning I think Sephiroth was the one in control.

The fact that Jenova and Sephiroth are independent of each other was shown during a scene in which they were both taunting Cloud, after Aeriths death and before Jenova's "LIFE" form was used to attack the party.

Sephiroth
"Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad."
"There's no need to act as though you're angry either."

Sephiroth
"Because, Cloud. You are..."

Jenova
"Because, you are...... a puppet."

At the same time though (a little U-Turn for me here) both the names Jenova taken from Jehovah and Nova meaning New God and Sephiroth basically pointing to the evolution and awakening of a God from an inactive rest(ie Sephiroth sleeping but still active from inside the cocoon) provides a strong case for both theories BUT for me since the evolution of a God in this case Sephiroth obviously being the one who evolved(Seraph Sephiroth) leads me to believe that Sephiroth was the stronger of the two.

Someone needs to learn the meaning of "Rhetorical Question"...

It's a nice piece about names, but to be honest it's all very irrelevant. Although it's obvious that Sephiroth was named for those reasons and that they helped built his character, we have no idea what draft of the script Sephiroth was named that in. Although it's very likely they are his roots it ultimately proves nothing. Tifa was added very late into the process, but does that mean that we should ignore everything that Tifa says and does because of that?

There is a LOT of speculation which I could also do. How about if Jenova and Sephiroth had melded but then Jenova expelled Sephiroth's conscience and took over his body entirely (afterall she was lacking a complete body herself) and that is Safer Sephiroth. We later fight the expelled Conscientiousness of Sephiroth as the very final boss. This sephiroth much more represents the sephiroth from the past... the Level 60 Sephiroth with materia and a sword, a much more human Sephiroth... a sephiroth who falls down in one hit. Even if it was a metaphorical battle between 'wills' then it still shows Sephiroth being weaker then Cloud. Strong will? Anyway, back to my original point, It no facts to back it up but is just speculation. Much like how We don't know that Sephiroth "Absorbed" Jenova's power to become Safer Sephiroth.

All his transformations and power comes from Jenova. In fact the more I think about it, it's completely ridiculous to even consider that Sephiroth is more powerful then Jenova because without her he is just a 1st class SOLDIER. It's true she may have leant her power to him but to take her over? I don't get it.

Jenova controls people through Psychology, and that is the way that she is controlling Sephiroth... she doesn't take over his body (like she does to Cloud who physically can't control himself) we know this because Sephiroth obviously shows his own will. This works both way though... If we look at your theory that would have to mean that Sephiroth has taken over her body physically but we know that isn't true because Jenova speaks and has her own will... So how on earth are you saying that she is Sephiroth's puppet? Why would Jenova be dependant upon Sephiroth? What on earth could he have over her?

On the other hand it's entirely likely and there is evidence throughout the game to show that Sephiroth is her puppet and is dependant on her. Jenova makes Sephiroth feel complete, part of a family, something he hasn't felt before. The first thing he does is he runs to his mother. Sephiroth seems to have developed abandonment issues which is evidenced when Cloud/Zack mentions his mother. Sephiroth's backstory is much like another easily manipulated puppet, Cloud, who also never felt part of Tifa's group. Jenova seems to specialise in manipulating these kinds of people.

It is for this reason alone that I cannot possibly see how Sephiroth is the main Villain because that would Make Jenova his brainless sidekick. Sephiroth being stronger or not is irrelevant and there is absoloutly no evidence that they became one conscience that Sephiroth overall took over. No evidence that Jenova was absorbed. This is why Jenova is my favourite character and not a puppet like Sephiroth. Even if Sephiroth channelled his power's through Jenova he still only does all he does because it's what Jenova wants.

Anything I've missed out?

Here are some nice quotes


Together? Where are his intentions to take over her conscience? None... he just wants to be together with her...


Hahaha, this one is a clincher... need I say anything about this one?


Maaaaan... these just keep on coming don't they? I think these all prove my point that Sephiroth seems himself very much as her underling. She is his God... The very idea that he would try to take her over doesn't make much sense at all. Jenova seems to be the only person he shows any respect or love for... why would he want to get rid of her? All his motives are her motives. Everything he does is her will. Sephiroth might be stronger, and he might think he is doing everything of his own accord but it seems that he is just Jenova's puppet.

That's because Cloud was a failure. And Sephiroth was far from a failure. Cloud did not respond properly to the Jenova cells, so Hojo didn't bother giving him a number.
The "Sephiroth clones" Zack and Cloud and the other numbered people were made for one purpose. Hojo wanted them to become extentions of Jenova, and see if his theory was true. That is, if Jenova will always find a way to reassemble herself, no matter how many times she is separated into pieces.
He created them because Sephiroth had been killed. Originally Sephiroth was made for this purpose, but with him gone Hojo needed new Jenova puppets. Since none of them were born with Jenova cells like Sephiroth, he created many subjects, hoping that at least a few of them would be successful enough to carry out the reunion as a Jenova puppet.

Sephiroth on the other hand was born with Jenova cells. And her ability is to control those with her cells. That's how she destroyed the Cetra race.
And all of a sudden, he magically shared her ideals on taking the planet.
When Sephiroth was in Nibelheim, he was close to Jenova, and that's where it all started to go wrong. His mental sanity started to waver more and more. When Zack battled Sephiroth he called out his name, but then corrected himself saying that the person in front of him no longer is the Sephiroth he once knew. Cloud and every other Jenova puppet all acted unlike themselves many times. (Cloud tried to kill Aeris for example) That Sephiroth so suddenly went from being a hero to a mad villain who suddenly shared the exact same ideals as the evil alien from another planet, while in close presence to Jenova, and became so different that even his friends who know him no longer concider him the same person, I find a bit coincidental to be on purpose concidering the behaviour of all the other clones when in her influence.

There are a lot of other things worth pointing out though.
For example, why was Sephiroth decieved in the beginning, thinking his mother was Cetra? What was the purpose of making him think that, from a story perspective? When he was in Nibelheim he believed himself to be a Cetra, and that Jenova had a right to claim the planet. But later in the game, he, or rather the "ghost Sephiroth", knows that Jenova is the "calamity from the skies". Would he still have helped Jenova if he realised early on that she was an evil alien, and that her cause wasn't that righteous at all? If so, then what was the point of Sephiroth being decieved, if he willingly wanted to take over the planet no matter what?

Another interesting thing is that the ghost Sephiroth onboard the ship from Junon does not recognise Cloud at all. How would Sephiroth remember everything else, but not Cloud, the person that killed him?
Jenova can dive into the minds of people who are carrying her cells and manipulate them. If the ghost Sephiroth (the real Sephiroth was still in a crystalised coccoon in the Northern Crater at that time) was controled by Jenova, then it would make sense that she wouldn't know who Cloud was. The only knowledge she would have of Cloud is what she can see in his mind. But since Cloud has amnesia, she got the wrong memories. Remember that the ghost Sephiroth keeps telling Cloud that he is only a clone and never existed before that day? That's because those are the only memories the ghost Sephiroth was able to see, because Cloud mixed up his own memories with Zacks.
But the real Sephiroth should know the difference between Zack and Cloud, and should know who Cloud was. The person who killed him, and accompanied him on missions. He even knew that Nibelheim was his hometown. Yet now he's completely clueless about who Cloud is? Another coincidence?

There's also the mysterious event at the Shinra building where all the guards were killed and Clouds cell door was mysteriously unlocked from the outside, while Jenova's container was destroyed from the insidee. Why did that happen right when Cloud happened to be near her, and not during any time of the 7 years before that? It's either a big coincidence, or Cloud's presence made it possible for her to finally break out.
Advent Children also states that it is "Mother" that they are following, and that Kadaj was jealous of Sephiroth because of how she favorites him. The voice Cloud hears in his dreams is also an un familiar one, so it's not likely Sephiroth's voice.

Either way, if Jenova clearly is capable of acting on her own, then where does Sephiroth fit in? Is she allowing him to do as he wants, or to even trump her? In that case, why weren't we shown this power struggle in the game? It would seem very relevant to the story. Not to mention how Sephiroth is able to use the same powers as hers in the first place, and being just a copy, how he could overcome her?
Still, there are a lot of situations where his behaviour has pointed in the direction of Jenova. I'll try to remember more. It's been a while.

I'm not sure if you were trying to be bitchy with Rhetorical Question remark? It's hard to tell in written word on the net but I hope not because I'm not angrily debating you(even open to what you are saying to a certain extent), just showing my reasons why I believe what I do that's all, apologies if it comes across that way.



Then why did she bother Synthesising her body in the end? If she was just using Sephiroths body then why would she have needed do to that?

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha…… They've come again, mother. With her superior power,
knowledge, and magic, Mother was destined to become the ruler of the Planet.

Was her destiny, meaning he was speaking in past tense - Now Sephiroth is here it's now his destiny with the aid of Jenova.



Just to repeat exactly what I said in my previous post - I wasn't saying there was a power struggle I am saying he became one with Jenova (ie the two heads) but he was the more dominant of the two mentally meaning I think Sephiroth was the one in control - In control of his own actions and ultimately the more powerful of two consciousnesses.



While I agree with you that he worships the very existence of Jenova, I disagree that he is her underling, I mean with the obvious religious overtones and inspirations in the game, it seems more like he is the embodiment of Jenova much the same way as in Christian beliefs that the human son of God Jesus, is the embodiment of God doing Gods work and using Gods power despite that fact he was a human being but he was still very much in control of what he was doing(in some Christian beliefs Jesus IS God). Sephiroth to me absorbed Jenovas cells to become embodiment of his God in order to become the ultimate being and finish off what she began -No doubt that could work both ways though.

I don't think either theories are ridiculous. I'm definitely open minded to the Jenova theory and have even opened up to the fact that they are together two entities but I still feel he has the stronger conciousness, that's what I meant by more dominant I wasn't saying he took over - that's why I mentioned the part about them both speaking I never once said she was Sephiroths puppet. I've no idea where you got that impression?

Again, I'm not p!ssing over your theories as you do have some really good points there, but right down to the bare bones surrounding the very meaning of Sephiroths name and how it ties into the story is far too strong for me to pass off as just simple speculation. The ONLY thing that would change my mind would be what either you or Pes mentioned earlier about seeing an original translated draft for idea of FFVII, even then though I wouldn't be very upset, the Jenova theory is still a good 'un.

Anyway, my copy of Crisis Core arrived in the post today so I'm off to play that and possibly start dabbling with the original FFVII when I'm done so I'll put these theories to the test once more although I could probably play the game backwards by now and still believe what I do. And ten years on after playing the game when I was just 18 with pretty much the same opinions back then, I'm still content with continuing to believe what I still do about my favourite game

Yep, Athrun and I had a VERYYY long debate about this about a year ago, and the ultimate conclusion we came up with was that Jenova is in fact the REAL GAME canon controller, or at LEAST a symbiotic force with Sephiroth. Athrun's points are the ones that stumped me over a year ago and finally convinced me that Sephiroth was under Jenova's control.

There's no doubt in my mind that Sephiroth is NOT 100% controlled, I believe he still has some of his own reason left to him, but the cells are the things that control his actions. He is still himself, but he's working FOR Jenova. Maybe not 100% controlled, but at least mindwashed enough that he's working FOR her.

Ultimania may say that he overcame her will and used her for his own ambitions, but I really think it's because he's such a large FF7 figure, it would take away his "evilness" if none of this was his own doing.

Finally, this is the point I've re-iterated at LEAST three times in this thead. If you believe that Sephiroth is NOT under control of Jenova and is in his own mind and conciousness, then you must then admit he is the most hollow, incomplete, and irrationally made villain.

Sephiroth has NO purpose to destroy the planet FOR Mother if he is in his right mind. Because he would KNOW that Mother is not an Ancient. He would know that HE'S not an Ancient. He would know that Jenova is not his PHYSICAL mother. And his motives would be completely out of the blue. At least if he's being controlled there is SOME sense to his actions and why he is who he is: That Jenova is using him as a tool for her own agenda.

If Sephiroth isn't being controlled, well then he's extremely pointless in terms of motives. You must admit that if you believe he isn't controlled.

Something I realized today made me lean toward Sephiroth being in control (although I still think plot wise, Jenova being in control is better). The reason I think Sephiroth was in control is because the very last fight of the game, after Seraph Sephiroth, is a fight against just Sephiroth, where Cloud uses Omnilash. If my understanding is correct, that fight was against the presence of Sephiroth in the lifestream (or maybe the presence of Sephiroth in Cloud's mind?). If Jenova were in control, she would not be behind Sephiroth as he is only supposed to be her "puppet", or her human gateway (sort of how Abel was to U-DO in Xenosaga), in the lifestream, she would be in her own form (even in Cloud's mind she should be her own form).

Just an idea, but the fact that Cloud ultimately kills that form that is Sephiroth, I'm beginning to lean towards the theory that Sephiroth was in complete control, worshipping Jenova as a god.

Note: Also got Crisis Core yesterday, so I plan on playing that to see if it reveals anything new.

I think I need to refresh my memory more to remember everything again, but Cloudy, you should check out my post on the previous page at least.

I can say this much though. Many of us discussed and disected the story as much as possible, and in the end most people felt that things more often pointed to Jenova than Sephiroth, and that things made more sense that way. If I refresh my memory I could probably present the points better than I have now.

Btw, this quote from the game is also another interesting point to take into concideration.



They're saying that it wasn't Sephiroth they were after this whole time.
Also:


Here he refers to the real Sephiroth as "it".
That's a strange way to refer to a person. Especially since he just refered to him as "he" right before he said "The real Sephiroth." The one they've really been after this whole time.

Amen.

But I'll vote for the sake of the thread, at least. And that vote goes to Kuja for the same reason it goes to Kefka.
Because he nearly, if not completely, attains what he set out to do. He has little to no respect for life in general and isn't at all afraid to manipulate those in power to further his ends.

I covered what I thought about that particular scene earlier -

Cloud
"Jenova's cells..."
"...hmm. So that's what this is all about."
"The Jenova Reunion..."

Tifa
"Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we
were after?" - Obviously talking about the realisation that they were fighting manifestations of Sephiroth in Jenovas bodyparts

(He shakes his head)

Cloud
"I'll explain later. Right now, the only thing I'm thinking about
is beating Sephiroth."

Tifa
"But Sephiroth is..."

Cloud
"He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here." - Again letting us know they weren't fighting the ACTUAL Sephiroth but manifestations of him. Which leads to the next scene showing the real Sephiroth where's he's actuallt been

Also it was Tifa asking a question (rather than making a statement) to which she never got a straight answer from Cloud. As for the "it" thing maybe they don't see Sephiroth as human any more or maybe its another mistranslation they did call Jenova a "he" at some point too.

Also there’s no way that Jenova is referenced as being the one in control Advent Children considering that goes completely against what the director and the writer stated on the DVD-

"Kitase said that Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him." and "Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."

I'm not getting into this again (because I’ve already devoted far too much time this topic, there's no point in "beating a dead horse") but I personally see the pages upon pages of what I have wrote with (religious) references to Sephiroths name (and Jenovas) its meanings etc, and what Hojo said (amongst other things) -

Hojo
"But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it
was all Sephiroth's doing."
"Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the
Lifestream; he wants to maniplate the Clones himself.

- far stronger and more concrete for me to pass it up as just simple speculation(its far from simple) as well as stronger than any of the arguments posed to me so far - although I think the Jenova theory is a good one I still don’t feel that’s what happened. Until I see an original pre-production template for the story of Final Fantasy VII, I’ll continue to feel the same way. Although I doubt that’s going to happen since it’s obvious what the writers feel is the better of the two theories and I'm inclined to agree - anyway back Crisis Core lol!!

sry Athrun cloudycat refuted those quotes pretty well. I'm just gonna stick with the fact it can be ambiguous and go with my own gut feeling of what I want it to be

Haha no spite is meant with the Rhetorical question remark...

I have never had any doubt that Sephiroth is completely and utterly in control of his actions, but all of his decisions are swayed by Jenova. If there was no Jenova then Sephiroth wouldn't have done anything, at least his plans would have been very different. All that concerns him is getting his revenge and so Reunion, meteor, black materia... none of it was important to him. Jenova is the mastermind behind it all as far as I'm concerned. He might have been using Jenova's power and been the one doing all the legwork. It was probably by his own will, but in reality it's Jenova bending his will to her pleasure.


I think you'll find his actually referring to how it was supposed to be. In fact it's quite obvious if you read the next line



It's a perfectly legitimate sentence... example
"You was supposed to take out the trash but instead you sat in front of the television"
In no way does that sentence construed to "Now I am destined to take out the trash".

To be honest I've lost track about what we're debating now... So to be clear... I belive that:
Sephiroth is in control of his actions
Jenova is manipulating him psychologically to do her will
Sephiroth has a strong will which Jenova is using to diffuse into the lifestream
There was no power struggle between Jenova and Sephiroth. Sephiroth worships her almost as a God. He accepts from the start that she is above him.
Sephiroth and Jenova work TOGETHER but as separate Conscientiousnesses
We can't truly know until I get hold of a Japanese script and I become fluent.

In reality, Jenova is the real Antagonist... However I have slightly changed my opinion because of one quote from Wiki

I take what the Ultimania guide says with a pinch of salt (Actually try a bucket full of salt) but I could see that Jenova ALLOWED Sephiroth control of her cells, thus why she might take Sephiroth's form and refer to herself in third person. However, I still believe that while he had control of her cells, he never had full control of the situation. I think she allowed him in order to further her plans but ultimately she keeps the upperhand the whole way through. That's just my theory though... Sephiroth is the main antagonist, and although he has control over her cells, she is still the puppet master, he never has control over her. His motives are Jenova's motives making her the REAL antagonist.

Is this making sense?

Yeah, I can definitely make sense of what you're getting at, and with exception to the manipulation and Sephiroth being a puppet I quite agree with most of what you're saying. Although I still very much feel that it's Sephiroth who becomes the 'ultimate evil' in the end, but taking in some of your points I also feel that it's absolutely Jenovas cells that made him what he is, and that lust for power and world domination was passed to him from Jenova.

On an earlier post I mentioned a trigger point for Sephiroth going mad. Something came to mind, about the first time Sephiroth came into contact with Jenova. For the first time he started acting irrationally and slashing at the containers when he was always calm and somewhat cold, so looking back it seems it seems that Jenova was probably the trigger point all along with the cells in his body reacting in close proximity to Jenova so yeah I can admit that Jenova definitely seemed to be responsible for the madness and lust for destruction in Sephiroth. He was like a time bomb waiting to go off and Jenova is the cause.

So, I can see that he's doing Jenovas bidding, as he is ultimately the embodiment of Jenova which allowed him to become so godlike and almost capable of destroying the world, but I still feel he is consciously doing her bidding because he wants to rather than being manipulated because going back to my theory about his cells first reacting to Jenova he had already became mad and probably didn't need any manipulation in trying to complete what Jenova started. So in the end I can definitely see that Jenova is the cause and the reason behind Sephiroths motives and why he becomes so powerful now, but I do strongly feel that he is the one in control in trying to destroy the planet because like he said he always felt special somehow and I feel he deems himself worthy of becoming a god albeit in Jenovas name (as well as his own).

So looking at it from a slightly new perspective I am definitely more open to the Jenova theory as well as ultimately sticking with my own outlook on the story - I think Laguna basically said best about going with your own gut feeling if that's what you enjoy the most.

All this talk of Jenova and with FFVII getting so many spinoffs, I would be really interested in seeing another prequel but this time with a completely new cast(no Cloud, no Sephiroth etc) back to the time when Jenova first arrived and see exactly what happened to Aeriths ancestors The Ancients, and how they stopped her, I think it would be a good template for an epic RPG if done right.

An RPG with Jenova and the Cetra wouldn't be too bad, I'd rather see OLD SCHOOL Shinra too tho, like Gast, Ifalna, Hojo, the OLD Turks, etc etc when they DISCOVERED her. I really like Hojo because his experiment "ability" can create a LOT of plotlines and plot twists. I mean just think, they created both Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, and Genesis all by some "unknown experiments".

Sure, that is one way of looking at it. Or you can look at it as it not being Sephiroth they were after, but Jenova.


This however seems to be reaching. He just called Sephiroth "he" in the very same sentence. But after saying "The real Sephiroth" Cloud refers to that as "it" and extremely "wicked and cruel". This is a very hard fact to ignore mainly because Cloud never again refers to "Sephiroth" as it.

Even in the end he says "HE is calling me" when refering to Sephiroth.
BUT.... and here's the key point, Cloud still refers to Jenova as "it" after this.

Cloud: Jenova...!? It's coming!!

How do you explain that? He never refers to Sephiroth as "it" after this, but as "he". Only Jenova is refered to as "it".
Obviously he was saying that the "real Sephiroth" is Jenova, because the one they thought was Sephiroth this whole time wasn't him.
I believe my point on the previous page of "Sephiroth" not recognising Cloud proves this well also.
The ghosts behaviour was very unlike Sephiroth. It doesn't make sense for Sephiroth to not remember Cloud, but coincidentally remember everything else. Jenova however would make that mistake, because the only way through which she can know Cloud is from what she sees in his mind. Which happen to be his faulty memories. And coincidentally(?) those memories are the exact same ones that this ghost Sephiroth seems to know.

Here he said that the real Sephiroth, the one they've been after is an "it". Extremely wicken and cruel.
This is obviously talking about Jenova and not Sephiroth. The unspecified persona "it" applies well to aliens, because they're not familiar with her actual gender if she has one. Not to people. Cloud has always, and even after this still does, refer to Sephiroth himself as a he.

And calling Jenova a he wasn't a misstranslation. The one who called Jenova a "he" was Ifalna, who also said that Jenova had the ability to shapeshit. She couldn't know Jenova's gender. No one really knows even now, because it's never been specified. In the Japanese version of the game Ifalna said "kare wa" which means he. There was screenshots of this on gamefaqs and translations to confirm it. I'll see if I can dig it up. But it wasn't a misstranslation. In the PC version however, she said "it". Perhaps to keep it consistant.


That doesn't mean that Jenova isn't controling anyone. Even if there is someone stronger, who's to say she's just sitting back and watching? Kadaj and co only follow Mother. They don't like Sephiroth.
Whether Sephiroth was using Jenova or not to get in control with her children, this reverts back to the point I made about FF7 in my post on the previous page.
If there was such a relevant power struggle between Sephiroth and Jenova, then why were we never shown this, if this is what really happened?


Well Hojo also believed that the Cloud was just a manufactured clone with no past of his own. That the Reunion would take place in the Shinra building. That Red XIII, when out in the same room as Aeris would mate with her, etc. He has been wrong many many times. We can pick and chose which one of his statements are accurate and which are not. But in the end he is still insane and obsessed with the idea seeing his creation, Sephiroth, be a successful experiement.

You can chose which statements to believe in, and which not to. How you want to view things in order to shape your theory. But I guarantee you theres a lot to be discussed before I came to that conclusion myself. I also thought Sephiroth was the puppet master at first, until things didn't seem to add up a lot more often than they did.

The post I made on the previous page was a lot more relevant though.
If you see this as a waste of time, then that's too bad. But I think it's very informative to see all points for and against, and made my descision based on that.

Oh, you know I already knew that several points can be viewed differently. I posted the first one to lead up to the "it" question. That one is a very hard fact to ignore without basing it arround wishful thinking.
And that's a new point we never even discussed before. So I'd like to hear your views on that as well.

This whole thing is based around the plot holes in the game such as Sephiroth never being shown to have gained Jenova's powers or that they would have a power struggle. That would be very relevant to the story and should have been shown.
For the Sephiroth theory there are a lot of "if's" and "maybe's" standing in the way. For the Jenova theory it's pretty much only Hojo's statement. There's a lot more weight found on the other side, which is why I, and other people such as your self chose to believe in that.

Nothing is for certain how they intended and made the game. But that Sephiroth was made the main villain afterwards isn't questioned. But there are other games where the story was originally intended to be different (Xenosaga, Suikoden 3) which explains some inconsistancies in the story.

I'll only be reiterating the same point over and over again and I don't have the time - I'm getting evil eye from the wife lol! I don't think your comments or views are a waste of time (quite interesting in fact) I also agree that Sephiroth is not the puppet master(same for Jenova too) but I have solidly come to my own conclusion as mentioned in the above response to Flame - A sort mix between the two theories

Well as much as I don't think the same point can be refuted to every point, since I haven't even mentioned half of it yet, like how you came to notice how Sephiroth started to irrationally arround Jenova, there are other things like this that are very interesting. But if you don't have time, then you don't have time. It is time consuming to put down all the facts on the table, that's for sure. lol
But at leats 'read' my post on the previous page some time, without replying. A few of them were mentioned there. (Though not as well put as a few years ago because I've forgotten a lot) You may get some ideas for the next time when this discussion is brought up and you want to join. Whether for or against, or somewhere in between.

Aye no probs I'll go through your post Sorry I can't reply properly man but when you get the evil eye from the woman of the house for spending too much time online then I better follow Jenovas I mean the wifes commands Rest assured though I will keep reading.

Haha, yeah don't upset the woman. We can make a proper discussion thread some time in the future, instead of hijacking this one. lol
I still need to refresh my memory about a lot of things anyway.

Another interesting point to add up is the explanation of Cloud's open doorcell.
If we follow the bloodtrails, as well as the slashes on the walls, you clearly see claw slashes and not slashes of swords, that or it seems odd to me that there are three similar slashes above each other.
Also, Jenova's tube was destroyed from the inside, which is unexplained in the game as well.
Technically, this means that Jenova got out herself (calling Jenova her, as Sephi called her his mother) and thus would explain the slashes on the wall.

However, I think Flame mentioned this some time ago, Jenova could've gotten Cloud out, to free her. I thought Flame mentioned something like this, quite some time ago, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, personally, I think the Sephiroth you see in Shinra ain't Sephiroth, but Jenova. We know Jenova manipulates minds and is a shapeshifter and as Sephiroth is known to by crystalized in Northern Crater, to me this seems to be the only possibility.

As Hiku said, the Jenova theory are all based on direct quotes from the game and information given to you by the game.
The Sephiroth theory is based on external sources, released several years after the games initial release, as well as many suggestion, nowhere proven to be facts and are only guesses and rumors.
They could be true, but at the same time, they could be false.

I believe that Jenova is the mind behind it all and to me sounds much better in the ears than Sephiroth gaining magical abilities out of nowhere.

I am pleased to see that cloudycat is interested in this, he's one of the few. I think we all remember corydroid xD.

Ah...the old argument.
My original thoughts on it can be found in my Jenova Thesis.
However, after all these years, I have conceded Sephiroth was in control.
Why?
Because NOMURA SUCKS SEPHIROTH'S COCK.
And the Compilation has ruined a perfectly good game.

Anyway....

Kuja was the best villain. Aa the all-knowing Xerno said on page 1, Kuja was both a combination Hotness and Personality. Clever, manipulative, sadistic, good motivation...plus a thong.

11/10.

I voted for Kuja just because he is the man and I loved the role he played in Final Fantasy IX.

I think Sephiroth is the best 3D FF vilain because:

1) He's got Carisma. He's a world famed hero, gone bad.

2) You know him since the early game, so there's kind of a emotional link, it's not like Ultimecia, that you only see in the end of the game, although I do think sh's quite a villain herself.

3) Throughout the game you get hints of Sephiroth inhumane strengh. You just KNOW he'll wibe the floor with you BAAAAAD!!!! XD


One more thing: I don't think the Turks and Seifer (and Fuujin and Raijin) should count as villains...