The Duke of Lolington
Jul 25 2008, 08:38 PM
QUOTE (Los Angeles Times)
A proposal that would place at least a one-year moratorium on new fast-food restaurants in a broad swath of neighborhoods, mostly in South Los Angeles, won unanimous support from a Los Angeles City Council committee Tuesday.
If approved by the full council and signed by the mayor, the law would prevent fast-food chains from opening new restaurants in a 32-square-mile area, including West Adams, Baldwin Village and Leimert Park. The moratorium would be in effect for one year, with the possibility of two six-month extensions.
The measure, proposed by Councilwoman Jan Perry, whose 9th District includes much of South Los Angeles, defines a fast-food restaurant as "any establishment which dispenses food for consumption on or off the premises, and which has the following characteristics: a limited menu, items prepared in advance or prepared or heated quickly, no table orders and food served in disposable wrapping or containers."
Councilman Jose Huizar questioned that definition during the meeting of the council's Planning and Land Use Management Committee and requested clarification from city planners -- particularly the definition of a "limited menu" -- before the proposal goes before the council.
"McDonald's has been increasing the number of items on their menu, so at what point would they exceed that definition?" Huizar said.
Councilman Jack Weiss said restrictions on fast-food restaurants in Westwood have caused problems for such businesses as Ben & Jerry's and Smoothie King, which would not otherwise be considered fast-food outlets.
Restaurant lobbyists initially opposed the law. But Andrew Casana, a lobbyist for the Sacramento-based California Restaurant Assn., said his group is working with Perry and other council members and is waiting to see how they define fast food and plan to deal with lots that remain vacant after the law expires.
Perry said that after speaking with restaurant lobbyists, she amended her proposal to allow for "fast-food casual" restaurants, such as Subway or Pastagina, that do not have heat lamps or drive-through windows and that prepare fresh food to order.
Perry said she has been attempting to address the health issues associated with fast food, such as diabetes and obesity. She is trying to persuade supermarket chains and sit-down restaurants to open in her district, which has been especially hard hit with such health problems.
The Community Redevelopment Agency is offering grocers and restaurants incentives that include tax credits, electricity discounts and expedited reviews by the city Planning Department and Building and Safety Department.
"It's important to offer incentives to bring restaurants into an area, especially an area that has suffered prejudices and stereotypes," Perry said.
Councilman Bernard C. Parks, whose entire 8th District is within the affected area, attended Tuesday's meeting and expressed support for the proposed law.
Huizar called for the city to do more to combat pervasive junk food advertising by educating children in South L.A. about healthy eating.
Julia Ansley, 66, a retired elementary school teacher who has lived in South L.A. more than 40 years, attended the meeting and said afterward that she was encouraged by the vote. "It's much needed," she said of the proposed ordinance. "Our community has been neglected by city planners."
In April, the county Department of Public Health released a study showing that 30% of South Los Angeles adults were obese, compared with about 21% of adults countywide. South L.A. also has the highest incidence of diabetes in the county, 11.7% compared with 8.1% for the county as a whole.
A Times analysis of the city's roughly 8,200 restaurants late last year found that South L.A. had the highest concentration of fast-food eateries. Per capita, the area has fewer eateries of any kind than the Westside, downtown or Hollywood, and about the same as the Valley. But a much higher percentage of restaurants in South L.A. belong to fast-food chains, and the area has far fewer grocery stores than other parts of town.
Now, I believe 100% in people's rights, and so this actually brings up a slight conflict in me. While people have to be responsible for their own health, at what point does it become so bad that the government has to step in?
This seems to be one of those situations, because frankly, any area of anything that is that fat should, in my opinion, be forced to live without any new fast food restaurants for a year, even if it's limiting their right to eat what they want. Perhaps that is the core of my moral debate here: Is it right for the government to limit people on certain things when the items in question have been proven to be bad for the people? If so, should this ban be extended to all of America, and include cigarettes and other harmful substances (naturally, the law would be expanded to include those items, and changed to fit that situation. After all, we don't have cigarette stores yet.) What are your opinions on this?
Original story location
Finn
Jul 25 2008, 10:57 PM
Those damn evil fast food restaurants brainwashing people to come eat their food. It's all part of a huge conspiracy I tell you. We must stop this madness at once!
Demonwing
Jul 26 2008, 05:57 AM
If people WANT to use their money and become fat, let them. If people don't want to stop eating there every day, it's their choice too. I work in a fast-food restaurant and can eat anything I want for free, but I don't pig out. Let people be in charge of their own stupidity, thank you very much.
The Evil Dead
Jul 26 2008, 08:08 AM
That bill wont pass. Do the people there have nothing better to do? I'm sure they could be working on far more important acts to pass.
Ken Masters
Jul 26 2008, 11:03 AM
It's LA, do you think majority of these people ever think for themselves? In anycase, it most likely won't pass but hey it's a crazy city, so you never know.
The Duke of Lolington
Jul 26 2008, 07:52 PM
QUOTE (Peacelover87 @ Jul 26 2008, 02:57 AM)

Those damn evil fast food restaurants brainwashing people to come eat their food. It's all part of a huge conspiracy I tell you. We must stop this madness at once!
My sarcasm detector is screaming.
No, I don't believe that the companies are brainwashing people to eat their foods, at least no more than any other company brainwashes people in to buying it's various products. However, there is the slight problem of mental and physical addiction to the fast food.
The consumption of food and the feeling of a full stomach will release chemicals in the body that give off a "good feeling", for lack of a better phrase (one exists, that I'm sure of, but then again, I'm not putting out the effort to find that). Certain foods, such as chocolate and indeed anything with a high sugar content, will release more of these chemicals than other foods. In fact, in combination with high fat and salt contents, foods that are high in sugar have been proven to release chemicals within the brain that provoke an emotional response (Source, since I know you want one:
Unwrapping the Fast Food Debate [2003])
Psychologically, the food has already been proven to be addicting (
Look it up), but combined with the physical effects of the food, can you seriously be surprised at people's actions?
QUOTE (Demonwing @ Jul 26 2008, 09:57 AM)

If people WANT to use their money and become fat, let them. If people don't want to stop eating there every day, it's their choice too. I work in a fast-food restaurant and can eat anything I want for free, but I don't pig out. Let people be in charge of their own stupidity, thank you very much.
So that they can die, and help decrease the surplus population, Mr. Scrooge? Keep in mind my argument right above this quote when you think this, and also bear in mind that not everyone has nearly as much self-control as you, or many people that I know.
As the article stated, there is very few grocery stores within the area where the food was banned, a phenomenon that doesn't really occur elsewhere in the United States (yes, we still eat actual food here). People, being dictated first by their needs and then by their wants, will go to the most convenient location for food, namely, the local McDonalds. If you are on a lunch break for 30 minutes, you have about four options available to you. One, you eat the crap company food. Two, you head down to the Super Market, which in this case is quite some drive, and pick up something healthier and tastier than the company food. Three, you head towards the nearest Fast Food restaurant and pick up a hot meal for three dollars, eat it in fifteen minutes, and still have time to talk with friends or relax. Or, finally, Four, not eat. A drastic over simplification, of course, but it illustrates the point nicely.
In essence, the notion that everyone in the world has means to change their behaviour by trying hard is completely ignoring the genetics and upbringing of the person, as well as the effects of the food itself on the people. I've forced my self, through a gradual process, to not eat any fast-food that was worse than Subway unless it was absolutely necessary, but even that took two years to do (I began the process at the age of 13, finished by 15. Up until the age of 15, I was incredibly unhealthy, to the point where I now have a smaller waist size than what I had when I was 13).
I await the counterpoints, or the inactivity.
Turtle Smasher
Jul 27 2008, 05:31 AM
only in california. where im from we literally live of mcdonalds dollar double cheese or taco bell 89 cent burritos. simply cause we broke and lazy. what ever happened to freedom?
Valince
Jul 27 2008, 05:46 AM
Don't really care myself. I hardly ever go to a fast food joint and when I do, it's to buy a large strawberry shake. And with the high censorship this stupid country has, why not just ban everything and put everyone in concentration camps?
Rhadamanthus
Jul 27 2008, 06:49 AM
QUOTE (Valince @ Jul 27 2008, 09:46 AM)

Don't really care myself. I hardly ever go to a fast food joint and when I do, it's to buy a large strawberry shake. And with the high censorship this stupid country has, why not just ban everything and put everyone in concentration camps?

This country's censorship is nowhere NEAR as bad as others. I'd like to say we're one of the better examples.
Also, I read that this bans the opening of new restaurants, not exactly closing the old ones. But does that include renewing leases as well?
I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but it sounds interesting.
Finn
Jul 27 2008, 04:17 PM
There are some people with self control issues but even so it is still partly their fault. If you have a bad addiction to fast food you can always seek help if you want to control it. I do agree that a grocery store should be built in the area though. But all I'm saying is that you can't just blame the fast food companies because the fault can go both ways.
The Duke of Lolington
Jul 27 2008, 08:25 PM
QUOTE ("Finn")
There are some people with self control issues but even so it is still partly their fault. If you have a bad addiction to fast food you can always seek help if you want to control it.
Once again, you are ignoring the psychological aspect of this phenomena. Some people are simply wired to be too proud to accept help, and some just don't think about it at all. Seeking help is often something that must be forced by others.
QUOTE ("Finn)
But all I'm saying is that you can't just blame the fast food companies because the fault can go both ways.
This is a true statement, but enough of the blame rests with the companies that they should be limited. After all, the information about these products has been out since 2003 (that's in the article I cited). These companies have been knowingly distributing food that is at the very least mildly addicting, as well as psychologically addicting. Surely enough of the blame goes on them to warrant at least some action from the government, although enacting stricter controls on the food would probably have been more effective.
Demonwing
Jul 28 2008, 06:14 PM
It's unhealthy and addictive, but so is smoking and drinking. Ever heard about something called the Prohibition?
People damage their health in all these ways, I hardly see why fast food should be held responsible. You were able to stop eating after becoming addicted from childhood, so why can't anyone else? I occasionally get myself a burger and an order of fries, because sometimes I just want something to eat and am unable to cook or am out of the house. There are rules against drinking and driving because that actually harms people around you, I don't think they could really get away with trying to ban fast food
The Duke of Lolington
Jul 29 2008, 11:10 PM
This isn't anywhere near prohibition for one. They're banning new restaurants, not destroying the old ones.
Now, your irrelevant historical arguments aside, you completely missed what I said in my post. I was able to quite because I have the genetics and the upbringing that allows me to break habits easily, and so I'm rarely addicted to anything at all.
But not everyone is "wired" this way. If you combined the physical effects of fast food with the psychological addictions that it causes, it's easy to see how people would become hooked on it. And no, not everyone has the willpower to stop eating fast food. Everything about you is determined by your genetics and your upbringing (genetics determining predisposition and your upbringing determining your actual personality).
Perhaps if I reiterate my point once again. Yes, it is possible for everyone to stop eating fast food, if they are able to completely alter everything they have learned in the past, their genetics, and the content of fast food itself. Is this possible? Yes, but so is inter-dimensional travel. It's not going to happen soon, and it's unlikely that either will happen at all. The reality is that people are not as inclined to change as we like to think. The majority of humanity is not dynamic, it is static in it's behavior. Real change is gradual, similar to moving a mountain. With enough time, the mountain will move, but it takes time. That is why there is still racism in the U.S., and elsewhere in the world. It's just subtle now, because we tried to blow the mountain to pieces, but only resulted in covering everything with a concealing layer of dust.
So, if you can't get the mountain to move with your force alone, you get nature to help (sticking with the metaphor, of course. Well....I did use the word similar, so this might be a simile. If you care enough to tell me which, feel free). They're trying to do that with this new bill, that is, to get new groceries stores in, and hopefully then more of the people will start buying healthful food.
The Evil Dead
Aug 3 2008, 02:23 PM
I think you and the people behind this bill need to mind their own business, and I mean that in a polite way. I think a major problem with this country is that a solid majority of people are really far too concerned with those around them instead of just worrying about themselves. Especially as far as individual aspects that have no effect on others.
I'm sure this whole idea is being tossed around with good intentions, but honestly I think it's an issue that is individual and not a matter of society as a whole. I realize people are raised a certain way or genetically disposed to addiction in its many forms, but that's something for that person to either understand or succumb to. Our own personal way of life, and certainly aspects like this that only brings harm to the individual, shouldn't be a matter of the public as far as intervening in the way stated in the article.
Theferrell
Aug 5 2008, 09:19 AM
QUOTE (Soul_Taker_Devil @ Jul 26 2008, 12:03 PM)

It's LA, do you think majority of these people ever think for themselves? In anycase, it most likely won't pass but hey it's a crazy city, so you never know.
QUOTE (Demonwing @ Jul 28 2008, 07:14 PM)

It's unhealthy and addictive, but so is smoking and drinking. Ever heard about something called the Prohibition?
If memory serves correctly, the prohibition ended MISERABLY. (nuff said on that...)
BUT, I think this is a good idea for South LA. Although I can't claim that I'm from there (I live like an hour East of L.A.) I lived in places like it in New Jersey for two years, and I think it's a good idea for the points they are shooting for. More people need to learn to cook healthy. It's also a LOT cheaper to cook for yourself than to buy dollar double cheeseburgers and 89 cent burritos if you know what you are doing.
Ok, now this is going to sound like a stupid idea... because it's a stupid idea, but funny nonetheless. I propose that in conjunction to this, they should replace BET and MTV with the Food Network so the chitlins of L.A. can learn positive cooking skills rather than sleezy whore-gang banging ideals that both those "popular networks" advertise. YAY EMERIL!!!!
Ken Masters
Aug 5 2008, 09:23 AM
QUOTE (Theferrell @ Aug 5 2008, 10:19 AM)

Ok, now this is going to sound like a stupid idea... because it's a stupid idea, but funny nonetheless. I propose that in conjunction to this, they should replace BET and MTV with the Food Network so the chitlins of L.A. can learn positive cooking skills rather than sleezy whore-gang banging ideals that both those "popular networks" advertise. YAY EMERIL!!!!
If only ethnic groups had a leader like this man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYggWJZZSw8
Voyou San
Aug 5 2008, 09:26 AM
here we go again trying to take the blame away from the people and put it on something else, just like kids killing people because of video games, and not because they are nut cases. If people want to be healthy, then eat healthy. It is not McDonald's fault that you buy their food and get fat, its your fault for not exercising and not eating properly. This is just pathetic.
Stupid bill and it should not get passed.
Quitsy
Aug 6 2008, 07:13 AM
I do feel that our nation need to do something to help with the obesity epidemic, but this is the wrong way to go about it. how about instilling programs in schools that teach children how to cook healthy meals? How about government coupon incentives for people who buy from grocery stores? How about more lenient availability of food stamps? How about stopping the closing down of grocery stores? A whole chain left our state, leaving certain poverty stricken neighborhoods without a nearby grocery store. How about government incentives for grocery store business owners? Another chain was supposed to use the facilities but they did not, they should have been fined.
For a long time, my husband and I lived off of fast food because it was essentially cheaper than grocery shopping. Over time grocery shopping is cheaper, but when you get paid $35 a day and work only three days a week, after bills there is little left but a dollar or two for a couple Mc-chicken sandwiches. But when applying for food stamps, we were told No. Now that we have a better living environment and have made better for ourselves, I have realized how much more efficient grocery shopping is, but when you do not even have a stove to cook on what are you supposed to do? That hotplate and microwave can only do so much.. So, the government needs to emphasize home cooking in some way, but banning restaurants is not positively reinforcing the great idea of cooking at home. I am all for helping the people of our nation, but this is a bad idea. Offer incentives for avoiding those places instead. (Oh- and make food stamps not allow you to get over a certain amount of frozen dinners, because those are just as bad. Cooking is not that hard, if I can learn how to anyone can. )
The Duke of Lolington
Aug 6 2008, 11:15 PM
QUOTE (Voyou San @ Aug 5 2008, 01:26 PM)

here we go again trying to take the blame away from the people and put it on something else, just like kids killing people because of video games, and not because they are nut cases. If people want to be healthy, then eat healthy. It is not McDonald's fault that you buy their food and get fat, its your fault for not exercising and not eating properly. This is just pathetic.
Stupid bill and it should not get passed.
Nobody ever pays attention to my posts, do they? I've posted again and again that it is often beyond people's control. Genetics and upbringing. That's what determines who you are and what you will become.
As far as McDonald's guilt, with the knowledge now available, and readily available, that their food is addicting and harmful, then they should be taking steps to reduce the crap in all of their foods, not just the alternatives. Unfortunately, they really haven't done anything significant (making your chicken white meat doesn't make your burgers healthier), and so it's time for somebody to do something about it. When people or corporations are unable to take responsibility for themselves, then the government must step in and do it for them.
On a different note, the above post makes good points, but also ignores the fact that the bill is only banning new restaurants. Please read the article carefully people, this isn't prohibition.
Theferrell
Aug 7 2008, 07:08 AM
I did read the article, and know what it's talking about.
But, funny note on the "all white meat" and "All Beef Patties" they now advertise for slmost all fast food resteraunts... what the crap were we eating before???
Voyou San
Aug 7 2008, 07:13 AM
QUOTE (The Duke of Lolington @ Aug 7 2008, 01:15 AM)

As far as McDonald's guilt, with the knowledge now available, and readily available, that their food is addicting and harmful, then they should be taking steps to reduce the crap in all of their foods, not just the alternatives. Unfortunately, they really haven't done anything significant (making your chicken white meat doesn't make your burgers healthier), and so it's time for somebody to do something about it. When people or corporations are unable to take responsibility for themselves, then the government must step in and do it for them.
On a different note, the above post makes good points, but also ignores the fact that the bill is only banning new restaurants. Please read the article carefully people, this isn't prohibition.
I would think if their food was not addiciting, then that would be bad for business and they probably wouldnt sell very much food.
on another note, I didnt ignore your post, i just didnt care, to me its people trying to blame someone else other than themselves.
The Duke of Lolington
Aug 7 2008, 08:19 AM
QUOTE (Voyou San @ Aug 7 2008, 10:13 AM)

I would think if their food was not addiciting, then that would be bad for business and they probably wouldnt sell very much food.
on another note, I didnt ignore your post, i just didnt care, to me its people trying to blame someone else other than themselves.
To be helpful, I am color coding my arguments.
You're now supporting the sale of addicting substances on the basis that it's good for business.
Businesses have a social responsibility, they don't just exist to serve their stockholders. You realize what else is good for business? Lack of environmental protection laws, lack of food safety, lack of employee benefits and minimum wage. Basically, the lack of every major advancement in people's rights over the past 100 years.
Do you remember the Industrial Revolution, and the condition of the working man during that time period? Oh, it was certainly lovely for business. After all, without any of our modern Anti-monopoly laws, food standards, or even something as basic as work place safety, business owners were able to make a wonderful profit screwing over...I mean....selling their items to the costumers. It was absolutely wonderful for the economy too! Lots of money was made by America overall. Just a shame that the money made was concentrated in to the hands of a select few men.
In short, what is good for business is not good for the customer, and certainly not good for the worker. Last time I checked, Majority still ruled in a democratic Constitutional Republic, and I can guarantee you, the majority of people are not fabulously wealthy business owners.Okay then. If science is to be ignored...
The world is flat, Space is filled with ether, apples fall up, and the reason water freezes is because little demons are scaring it.
Feel free to hold your own beliefs, but ignoring arguments that make points that contradict your belief seems to prove that you are suffering from Morton's Demon. If you do believe that Free Will is the way human beings decide things, then feel free to present arguments to support said hypothesis.I'd go back and quote everything I've said to prove your statements wrong, but it's not worth the time to copy and paste.
Okazaki Tomoya
Aug 7 2008, 08:33 AM
QUOTE (Voyou San @ Aug 7 2008, 10:13 AM)

QUOTE (The Duke of Lolington @ Aug 7 2008, 01:15 AM)

As far as McDonald's guilt, with the knowledge now available, and readily available, that their food is addicting and harmful, then they should be taking steps to reduce the crap in all of their foods, not just the alternatives. Unfortunately, they really haven't done anything significant (making your chicken white meat doesn't make your burgers healthier), and so it's time for somebody to do something about it. When people or corporations are unable to take responsibility for themselves, then the government must step in and do it for them.
On a different note, the above post makes good points, but also ignores the fact that the bill is only banning new restaurants. Please read the article carefully people, this isn't prohibition.
I would think if their food was not addiciting, then that would be bad for business and they probably wouldnt sell very much food.
on another note, I didnt ignore your post, i just didnt care, to me its people trying to blame someone else other than themselves.
Then i would suggest not posting if you have nothing to contribute other than your own opinion that doesn't reveal any deeper reasoning to it. My opinion is sadly resembling yours. But not to the extreme. It's my own view that the consumer is at fault. For one, corporations don't exactly label what the nutritional value of their products are. There is little brochures and such in the restaurant (when I did a small project on this back in High School), but often in a place normally not of interest to a consumer, like in front of the bathrooms.
Consumer awareness also tends to fail. Alot. Classroom teaching isn't effective when the same thing goes on in school cafeterias. On a typical friday lunch here in Northern Virginia, when I attended High School in PW County, it was greasy strombolli, numerous snacks, maybe mashed potatoes and very watery gravy. Before I moved, I lived in FFx County. Went to a highschool there. The pizzas were normally greasy, and cup ramen was sold as well in a sperate lunch line. The healthiest food item I bought was a can of juice and soft pretzel, and even then, I removed the salt and abstained from the cheese dip.
Consumer awareness of foods that will make people overweight also comes from a much larger problem of the growing number of children not getting the exercise they need. Before I digress any further, I believe the city council is trying to fix the problem by focusing on one issue and ignoring the rest. I believe it ain't as simple as they make it out to be.
Josun Tomoro
Aug 7 2008, 08:34 AM
Both sides are right. It is technically the responsibility ot the individual to take care of their own health and lives. If they eat tons of fast food, get to be 1000 lbs of lard, and die two years later, its not our problem is it?
But then, there are people out there who are either too lazy to try curbing their problem, or just cant because of their ubringing or genetics. Their are people out there who are payed to care about the whole society of a nation. There called politicans. Sometimes they just dont get it right the first time.
Im not addicted to fast foods, heck, i love to cook. But, the fast food industry does serve a small purpose. To give people something quick and easy to eat when they dont have time to think of something to make, or are just to lazy to cook.
Does this mean the FF industry should make healthier food? Maybe, but for one thing, alot of the healthier foods out there take more time to cook, thus why the places are called "fast food (FF)". They do try and serve some healthier foods, but most people want something thatll taste good, fill them up, and will only take less then five minutes to get. It is peoples responsibility to choose if they wish to have something fat filled or something good for them.
But, obescity is becoming a problem, and does need to be curbed. The phrase "What were doing is for the good of your health" could be brought up, but those who have the proble, arent doing anything, so someone has to.
Voyou San
Aug 7 2008, 09:00 AM
i guess i just figured an opinion was all that was needed, didnt think i needed to bring my history books and wikipedia with me.. but oh well, i didnt read through the whole rainbow post you made cause it hurt my eyes, i think what i think, you think what you think, the world still goes round and round..
i am sorry everyone who was offended, i did not mean to bring an opinion into a debate on a forum, how uncool of me..
Josun Tomoro
Aug 7 2008, 09:24 AM
What you brought in was an opinion with little backing, which is the worst thing to bring into a debate forum.
Voyou San
Aug 7 2008, 09:45 AM
QUOTE (Josun Tomoro @ Aug 7 2008, 11:24 AM)

What you brought in was an opinion with little backing, which is the worst thing to bring into a debate forum.
i see, i see. I understand that the food is addictive, i get your point and i see all the stats you present and thats great. But at the end of the day, it all boils down to who ate the food? Who drove up to the fast food place and placed the order? Were you forced to do it? NO you were not. Were you mabye given a slight nudge by an addictive food, yes.
At the end of the day we must all look ourselves in the mirror and take the blame for our own errors and our OWN choices. When we start to point the finger elsewhere instead of right back at ourselves, that is when we lose sight of everything and nothing will change in yourself from that stance.
You know ive been around big people who complained about their size, but these are the same big people who want to get sympathy from everyone yet do nothing about it. If your a big person, and McDonalds is making you gain weight, then grow some testies and stop eating the food, its not rocket science.
Josun Tomoro
Aug 7 2008, 10:20 AM
You do not seem to understand a few things in your little rant.
1. I do point a finger at botht he consumer and the company, Its the fault of the companies not putting out better healthier food, and its the fault of the consumer for buying 2o bigmacs in one week.
2. Addicitons are hard things to get rid of. They are harder to get rid of then habits. Some people are either too lazy to try breaking their addiction, some just cant do it on their own, and some think they dont have an addiction. Thus we need to help them by doing it for them.
3.Its not rocket science, but just because it doesnt have a field of research doesnt mean its not complicated. Go ask a smoker whos trying to stop, both the gradual quitters and the cold turkey quitters. Ask them how hard it is for them to get off their addiction. Its the same thing for any addiction. Some just dont have the paitence, or the willpower to do it.
If we have to point a finger at ourselves, should we not include the Fast Food industry? Their food is a temptation, and sometimes temptation is just to powerful. Some people just love eating the greasy fatty foods and cant help it, because it is either in their upbringing or their genetics. The FF companies dont take blame themselves, they point at the consumers just as much as the consumers point at them.
Do not try and seem like some perfect person who has no addictions. Everyone has them. Mine is chocolate, but i have gradually wittled it down to where its less of a problem. But if i am offered chocolate, ill take it. I wont simply eat all the chocolate in sight like i used too.
Everyone is too blame in this type of situation.
The Evil Dead
Aug 7 2008, 10:56 AM
QUOTE (Josun Tomoro @ Aug 7 2008, 01:20 PM)

You do not seem to understand a few things in your little rant.
You don't seem to understand yours. You're both sharing an opinion.

QUOTE (Duke)
You're now supporting the sale of addicting substances on the basis that it's good for business.
Better call the feds.
Here's my problem, guys. If you're willing to intervene as far as Fast Food, you better be willing to intervene in any other substance that's for sale that could be addictive. We may as well prevent the opening of any place that may potentially sell an addictive substance that may have harmful side effects and force some sort of alternative down someone's throat. Be it fast food, cigarettes, coffee, alcohol, or something else. In fact, we may as well take away the right of choice.
If businesses are making money based on the choices of others, then good for them. That's what a business is all about. For every McDonald's, there's a Whole Foods or whatever your local health food place is called. The choice is there to make. You or or any political legislature have no right to take that choice away.
Also, who are you to say you're better than everyone else and can make the choice for the majority?
Voyou San
Aug 7 2008, 11:00 AM
my rant was not pointed at you josun actually, it was that other guy that typed in rainbows.
and i have addictions.. anime and video games... *drools*
Josun Tomoro
Aug 7 2008, 11:03 AM
There are many ways of giving an opinion.. my favorite to listen or read is one that Stephen Colbert uses.
Everything in a sense is an opinion, but there are many opnions out there that can be backed by large amounts of facts, making the difference between Fact and Opinion very smudged
Suishoko
Aug 8 2008, 03:26 PM
I agree with TED, if you all want to keep bashing the fastfood restaurant, why not bash the cig companies too? they are doing more harm than fastfood, why aren't they bashed?
I don't think the fault lies in the fastfood restaurant, i think it lies in the people themselves. There is alot of choices of food in the area surely but they still choose to eat fastfood, knowing it is unhealthy and all and its the fastfood restaurant's fault? Actually, fastfood isn't unhealthy, anything eaten in excess is unhealthy.
Yeah, fastfood are addictive, so? Cigs are addictive too, but some people can quit it, although in the process they feel like dying but it can be done. So whats to stop the people from quiting fast food? They just don't want to and thats the fastfood restaurant's fault? Hardly, the fastfood restaurant didn't make the people's choice for them did they?
The Duke of Lolington
Aug 8 2008, 09:44 PM
It seems to me that people are attempting to make this a philosophical debate, when in reality, it is a scientific one.
The lovely philosophy of freedom of choice is thrown around by the majority of the population, for the very simple reason that it's a comforting thought. Human beings relish control, and the world would be mortified if suddenly that control was torn from beneath there feet, because once our sense of control is gone, Humanity is nothing more than a slightly more intelligent, terrified animal.
Our debate on fast food has now boiled down to the basis difference of opinion that is causing this debate, namely, two schools of thought. The first is the school of thought that I have been pointing too again and again in the thread, the idea that Human choice is but an illusion. This is a school of thought backed by facts, both in the field of genetics, and the field of psychology. I've said this
countless times throughout this entire topic. Your personality, body shape, every little thing about you is determined by your Genetics, Environment, and Upbringing. Human beings act in predictable manners, and assuming that enough information could be gathered on a person, you could predict their moves down to when they will stop to pick their nose (note, don't respond to this argument. Yes, I know it's impossible to gather that much information, it's used to make a point. Emphasis).
Now then, I'm not going to post what I've said before again. It's getting bothersome to repeat myself over and over again because people are too lazy to read my arguments.
QUOTE
Yeah, fastfood are addictive, so? Cigs are addictive too, but some people can quit it, although in the process they feel like dying but it can be done.
Concerning the addicting qualities of Tobacco, and the harmful effects of it, if you've noticed over the past few decades, the Tobacco industry has received far more criticism than the fast food industry. Awareness has been raised about the dangers of smoking tobacco, and yes, a result of that is more people are attempting to quit smoking. While this is a positive thing, you have ignored the darker side of it, namely, the people who fail miserably, or don't try to at all. Addictions are far stronger than most people's "willpower", and even those that try to quite are often back to smoking within a few months, or a few years. All of humanity's attempts to curb the tobacco industry haven't been as successful as many of us would like. After all, according to the World Health Organization, one hundred million people died in the 20th Century due to Tobacco and tobacco related diseases.
Also, to respond to the last part of that sentence: Some people can walk on the moon, but the majority of people can't. Just because something is possible, doesn't mean that it can be effective on a large scale.
QUOTE
Here's my problem, guys. If you're willing to intervene as far as Fast Food, you better be willing to intervene in any other substance that's for sale that could be addictive. We may as well prevent the opening of any place that may potentially sell an addictive substance that may have harmful side effects and force some sort of alternative down someone's throat. Be it fast food, cigarettes, coffee, alcohol, or something else. In fact, we may as well take away the right of choice.
Not only are you taking the statement out of context, you are taking the statement to the extreme. Intervening with fast food does not mean a complete ban on it. Limit it, yes, halt it's growth, yes, inform people of the harmful effects, yes. Ban it? Are you kidding? Why would I ever present such a vulnerable argument? I'm educated in history, philosophy, psychology, and general science, and I certainly know enough of American History to remember the prohibition and the effects it had on the populous. I would be ashamed of myself to ever argue for the total banning of a consumable resource, especially an addicting one.
Back to your statement though. I will once again color code this, for my convenience.
Because why? Because suddenly, the people will demand that we restrict alcohol, tobacco, and every other type of food out there? No, if we intervene with fast food, the only thing this country would need to be ready for is a massive purchase of smaller pairs of pants. There is no need attached to the limitation of fast food, no responsibility outside of the original commitment. This isn't an extremist movement to make everyone a vegetarian, this is a step towards limiting an extremely addicting and extremely harmful substance.Once again, you're assuming that we're arguing for a total ban on fast food. I've been saying for this entire topic that it needs to be limited. The article is speaking about a bill to limit fast food's growth, not to ban it entirely. Read these things more carefully next time.I keep forgetting, it's every human being's God Given right to stuff forty two grams of fat down their throat once per day, rather than having that number cut down significantly. Your arguments seem to point to a paranoid vision of people with my viewpoints, that suddenly I have some sort of "Whole Grain Agenda". Careful what you ask from this point on, you might discover my evil plans.Coffee and caffeine have proven to be far, far less addicting that Fast Food. Actually, your whole post is kind of rendered pointless because....
Nobody is trying to ban Fast Food.
Alright then. Because you no longer have the right to shove that Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese in to your face, you also lack the right to vote, to drive, to watch the shows on Television that you like, etc, etc. Yes, I'm being sarcastic, to point out the borderline paranoia that this statement seems to convey.This topic is starting to make me giggle.
Suishoko
Aug 9 2008, 03:20 AM
I would like to ask you this, do you know the difference between the words intervene and banning? YOU keep saying that TED is ASSUMING and keeps thinking that they are going to ban all fast food. Have you been reading carefully his post? Do you see anywhere in his post that says that he is thinking so? YOU are ASSUMING that TED is ASSUMING that they are going to ban fast food restaurant while I could not find anywhere in his post that even implied so. Better yet, why dont you ask him about it? I am very sure he does not assume so.
[Once again, you're assuming that we're arguing for a total ban on fast food.] this is what you said in your post. AND this is also what you said in your post [ Intervening with fast food does not mean a complete ban on it]. So stop assuming that TED is saying ANYTHING about the total ban on fast food.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QUOTE (Josun Tomoro @ Aug 7 2008, 01:20 PM) *
You do not seem to understand a few things in your little rant.
You don't seem to understand yours. You're both sharing an opinion. smile.gif
QUOTE (Duke)
You're now supporting the sale of addicting substances on the basis that it's good for business.
Better call the feds.
Here's my problem, guys. If you're willing to intervene as far as Fast Food, you better be willing to intervene in any other substance that's for sale that could be addictive. We may as well prevent the opening of any place that may potentially sell an addictive substance that may have harmful side effects and force some sort of alternative down someone's throat. Be it fast food, cigarettes, coffee, alcohol, or something else. In fact, we may as well take away the right of choice.
If businesses are making money based on the choices of others, then good for them. That's what a business is all about. For every McDonald's, there's a Whole Foods or whatever your local health food place is called. The choice is there to make. You or or any political legislature have no right to take that choice away.
Also, who are you to say you're better than everyone else and can make the choice for the majority?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here, TED's post for reference. The only thing so close to arguing for the total ban of fast food is the part where he said we may as well prevent the opening of any place that may potentially sell an addictive substance that may have harmful side effects... which is what the South L.A. is doing aren't they? preventing the opening of fast food restaurants. So if you can find ANY points from that post above that so suggest that he is arguing for the total ban of fast food, enlighten me.
Human choice is an illusion? how so? are you saying that we do not have a choice at all? So everyday I wake up, somebody higher up in the universe somewhere will decide whether i eat bread or cereal?
[Your personality, body shape, every little thing about you is determined by your Genetics, Environment, and Upbringing] this is what you said and this is also what you said [Human beings act in predictable manners, and assuming that enough information could be gathered on a person, you could predict their moves down to when they will stop to pick their nose (note, don't respond to this argument. Yes, I know it's impossible to gather that much information, it's used to make a point. Emphasis). ]
So what if you know about his personality blah blah blah his future actions blah blah blah, what does this have to do with human choice? Yes you can predict their movements and blah blah blah, so? it still does not mean that humans dont have a choice. You just get to know their course of action earlier, is all. I was addicted to fast food once, hell I craved it too but i am able to quit this addiction, i chose to, can that also be predicted? Like in the future XX years, i am able to quit this addiction?
And is this prediction even 100% accurate?
Josun Tomoro
Aug 9 2008, 08:51 AM
In the hopes of keeping this from getting out of hand, time to try my third party stance again.
Human choice is only a partial Illusion. Our enviroment, genetics, and our upbringung can give someone enough information to predict many of the things that person may and may not do. DO NOTE: He is not speaking of god, but human instincts There is however, the single thing that seperates us from animals. Animals have a set of instincts for every thing that could happen in their enviroment naturally. This set of instincts helps them live and thrive in their habitat.
Humans have the advantage of change. Humans can change, its part of our evolutionary process, but that change is also influenced by our genetics and our lives that we live.
I know a business's goal is to thrive and get bigger, selling something that people like is a good thing for such a thing right?
Yes, and no.
First of all, banning anything in this country will immediately start a few riots, so no ones going to ban anything. And as for certain other addictive products, they do limit them, in different ways. You dont hear as much about the ways for Tobacco because its been going on longer. We limit Tobacco by placing restrictions on it in the hope of eventually strangling the life out of it.
And may i point out that both sides seem to assume things, although this is a debate, philisophical or scientific, these are involving opinions. Both sides assume they are the right side, and are therefore trying to prove it, when neither side is really right.
heres an interesting piece of your "freedom of choice". Suishoko, you choose to think your opinion is better then Dukes, and assume he has no real ideal what hes talking about. Duke, the same could be said for you as well. You have to try and look at all sides concerned perspectives, because, and im going to use your argument here duke, our enviroment, genetics, upbringing, and personallity all effect our point of view on things. They effect our core beliefs. You have to take their side for a moment and look at it from their perspective. Thats one of the reasons theres so much trouble in the world. People dont choose to look at things from the other side.
Im done for now. I wonder how much more this thing is going to heat up.
Suishoko
Aug 9 2008, 01:27 PM
I would really like to go running off and shouting : OMG HAVE YOU BEEN READING?
(i guess thats how duke feels everytime, *sigh* although we have different opinions and keep disagreeing with each other, you have my empathy xD)
First of all, I keep emphasing that WE are not TALKING about the banning of ANYTHING. ARGH! did you even read my previous post?
Second, so? human instincts are one of the factor of how we choose, its like, I think I have a bad feeling about this however I am still going to go with it. AREN'T I MAKING A CHOICE?
[Suishoko, you choose to think your opinion is better then Dukes, and assume he has no real ideal what hes talking about. Duke, the same could be said for you as well.] see the choose there? it is the keyword. I agree that our environment, genetics, upbringing determines our personality and point of view of things HOWEVER they are factors that affect us in making choices, ultimately is US making the CHOICE.
I want to ask, is there a better or worse to a opinion? I dont think my opinion is better than duke's, i just disagree with him, is all.
[Our enviroment, genetics, and our upbringing can give someone enough information to predict many of the things that person may and may not do.] see the may there? it is also the keyword.
[They effect our core beliefs] what does that have to do with ANTYHING? it just determine our religion doesn't it? what does that have to do with human choice?
[People dont choose to look at things from the other side.] you got it wrong, its that WE REFUSE to look at the other side of things AND I DIDN'T. I did look on the other side of things and i just so happen to disagree.
And I say it again, so what if you can predict human choice? It still does not mean that we don't have a choice, you just get to know our choice earlier, AND i ask again, is this human choice prediction even 100% accurate?
ARGH! read carefully before you post
PS: Actually, animals are changing too you know, like say the cockroaches, everyday we spray insecticide/pesticide (dont know which that they spray this days >.>;;;) on them and now, they are getting immune to it o.o I am serious, my classmate was using bygon (sp?) and that thing just walked away while getting sprayed on >.<;;;. And we were animals before being human, actually they say human is also animal so animals can change

and sorry for the caps, forget how to shortcut bold/underline my words xD
Josun Tomoro
Aug 9 2008, 05:47 PM
(for your future reference, [ quote ][ /quote ]{without spaces} is the thing when ya want to quote)
In order of points, and yes, i have been reading. But you are also assuming things.
1. You think i meant you were talking of banning. I was simply stating something to end the banning ideal. If a bunch of people riot over the banning of something, then the govt wont do it.
2. You are making an Influenced choice. While you are the one choosing the end result, you have no real control over what will influence the final choices available.
3. Answered with last point
4. Disagreeing could also be considered thinking better. Its more of a subconcious thought then a concious one.
5. The may is a random variable. Part of the prediction thing comes to how many options one has. The more options, the harder to predict. The chance of the prediction being right drops as the # of options rises, and vise versa.
6. I do not mean religion, though it these beliefs are possibly influenced by religion, another variable. These are things that we aquire through our enviroment, our upbringing, and our personallity. I dont add genetics, as i dont think that fits with this section. These beliefs are basically are deep moral code, like say, never killing someone. (one example, though religious, is the quakers strong belief in not killing, thus why they cannot get conscripted) This example is the only one i can think of, and this one is starting to make my head hurt XD
7. Its not exactly what i meant. I meant actually think of it in the other persons point of view. A better term would be to "put yourself in their shoes". Think about what makes them think the way they do. Your supposed to see why they would be on the other side of the topic
8. You cannot completely predict a human, not unless they have nothing but one option, which is almost completly rare when a human has ONLY choice.
9. I do read.
P.S. Thats a bit different. What is actually happening is the killing agent is killing some, while others live. The ones who live have a higher chance of resisting the chemical, which means the next generation have a stronger chance, and it continues till the chemical no longer has any effect.
Animals can change, but it takes them longer. We went above the capabilities of animals when we gained the ability to think beyond our instincts.
Suishoko
Aug 9 2008, 07:30 PM
QUOTE
1. You think i meant you were talking of banning. I was simply stating something to end the banning ideal. If a bunch of people riot over the banning of something, then the govt wont do it.
I was talking of banning, just that i was talking about banning like we were not banning anything. Well yeah i assumed, i assumed that you were replying to me =).
QUOTE
2. You are making an Influenced choice. While you are the one choosing the end result, you have no real control over what will influence the final choices available.
you said that I am the one choosing the end result, so i do get to choose dont i? We can be influenced/manipulated into choosing something but we have the power to choose otherwise, thats the freedom of choice.
QUOTE
4. Disagreeing could also be considered thinking better. Its more of a subconcious thought then a concious one.
O.o I checked the dictionary.com, the meaning of disagree is different from the meaning of better. And I was NOT thinking that my opinion is better than duke's or your's for that matter
[Suishoko, you choose to think your opinion is better then Dukes, and assume he has no real ideal what hes talking about. Duke, the same could be said for you as well.] <---- this is you assuming.
QUOTE
5. The may is a random variable. Part of the prediction thing comes to how many options one has. The more options, the harder to predict. The chance of the prediction being right drops as the # of options rises, and vise versa.
thats like the math chapter probability x_x but I understand what your trying to say (i think i heard the word finally somewhere xD) its a bit like luck and guessing, just with more information your more accurate x_x
QUOTE
6. I do not mean religion, though it these beliefs are possibly influenced by religion, another variable. These are things that we aquire through our enviroment, our upbringing, and our personallity. I dont add genetics, as i dont think that fits with this section. These beliefs are basically are deep moral code, like say, never killing someone. (one example, though religious, is the quakers strong belief in not killing, thus why they cannot get conscripted) This example is the only one i can think of, and this one is starting to make my head hurt XD
Now this is your bad. I checked dictionary.com and my lousy common sense, the meaning of beliefs and moral is not the same so can't blame me for thinking its more related to religion, just put moral next time. And moral is a factor that affects our choice/ eliminate our choice however it is still us making the choice, like say, you are left with two options, kill your mother or kill your father but your moral dont permit that so you dont really have a choice but to think up a third option. However, it all depends on you to draw on what kind of list and the decision is in your hands, you get to choose what to do.
QUOTE
7. Its not exactly what i meant. I meant actually think of it in the other persons point of view. A better term would be to "put yourself in their shoes". Think about what makes them think the way they do. Your supposed to see why they would be on the other side of the topic
"put yourself in their shoes" is mostly use in trying to get someone to feel empathy. How the heavens would i know what makes them think the way they do? I am not him, I dont even know him, even if i do, i still wouldn't know why he would think the way he does until he explains to me why he thinks like that. I can see why they are on the other side of the topic. We disagree.
PS [Humans have the advantage of change. Humans can change, its part of our evolutionary process, but that change is also influenced by our genetics and our lives that we live.] @_@ <---- this is me confused. you used the word advantage, do you know the word advantage usually means ' i have something that you dont have', cant blame me for thinking that ways.
Have you measured the time for them to change into something different? how can you assume they take longer than we do? We know animals change, however at what rate, we still dont know.
The Duke of Lolington
Aug 9 2008, 09:02 PM
You know, I really, really don't feel like reading through all of those sentences....
I will make this final statement about freedom of choice before I take my leave of this debate for the time being (I have neither the will nor the time to respond to that mass of incoherent sentences and strange lack of coding). Freedom of Choice is a complete illusion, a statement supported by scientific facts. When I say that you are determined by your genetics, upbringing, and environment, I mean just that. It's wonderful to take Freedom of Choice as a philosophy, but this isn't a philosophical debate. Like I said, it's a scientific debate, and science has proven my statements correct. I really could go and cite these things for you if you wish, but in the time it takes for me to do that, I could eat some cheese and crackers, which is starting to sound very delicious right about now.
Basically, my response is this. Read my statements carefully. Feel free to hold a differing opinion, just as long as you are aware that said opinion is wrong.
Until something I can read in under half an hour is posted, I bid you all farewell. This was rather disappointing, actually, outside of some of TED's arguments. Perhaps more interesting topics will present themselves later on.
Suishoko
Aug 9 2008, 09:08 PM
I dont think my opinion is wrong, we just think two different things. I dont get you, you dont get me.
My personality IS determined by my upbringing, environment and genetics but what does that have to do with human choice?
science have proven your statements correct and you said that you could go cite these things for me so could you? I am really interested as to what scientific facts have proven your statements correct. I hope this scientific prove have statements like "human choice is an illusion"
And i wish to emphasize again, the ability to predict human's choice/ course of action does not mean we do not have the choice, we still do.
PS duke, if we have been talking about the banning of fast food, please look at the misleading thread name *points* now you know why.
Rhadamanthus
Aug 9 2008, 09:49 PM
QUOTE (The Duke of Lolington @ Aug 10 2008, 01:02 AM)

You know, I really, really don't feel like reading through all of those sentences....
I will make this final statement about freedom of choice before I take my leave of this debate for the time being (I have neither the will nor the time to respond to that mass of incoherent sentences and strange lack of coding). Freedom of Choice is a complete illusion, a statement supported by scientific facts. When I say that you are determined by your genetics, upbringing, and environment, I mean just that. It's wonderful to take Freedom of Choice as a philosophy, but this isn't a philosophical debate. Like I said, it's a scientific debate, and science has proven my statements correct. I really could go and cite these things for you if you wish, but in the time it takes for me to do that, I could eat some cheese and crackers, which is starting to sound very delicious right about now.
I ask that you please cite these claims from reputable sources.
Josun Tomoro
Aug 12 2008, 02:17 AM
I would like these cites as well, seeing as it seems my attempted third party arguments have been insulted.
QUOTE
you said that I am the one choosing the end result, so i do get to choose dont i? We can be influenced/manipulated into choosing something but we have the power to choose otherwise, thats the freedom of choice.
While you do have the choice of the final result, you dont get to choose what options you will have to choose from. Thats what i meant if there was any confusion.
QUOTE
thats like the math chapter probability x_x but I understand what your trying to say (i think i heard the word finally somewhere xD) its a bit like luck and guessing, just with more information your more accurate x_x
nice to know something im saying has some actuall basis XD. Most of my argument is opinion leaning on the facts both sides put in.
Animals take more time to adapt, if you believe in evolution, which i do, there brain isnt evoled enough yet to make changes that go past their instincts. Humans have passed animals in that they have controlled or gone past a few of their instincts. Humans can adapt to almost any enviroment, while if you put an animal in any other enviroment its not used too, it will die. And only if a few somehow survive, it will take generatiosn for themt o adapt while it takes at most maybe a decade or just one generation.
PS: I get the odd feeling that once we ask for these cites hes gonna either never post here again or hes going to give cites that dont have a good enough basis.
The Evil Dead
Aug 12 2008, 07:48 AM
Well, I'm glad to know that I'm already genetically predisposed to indulge in addicting behavior and I have no choice but to give in to said addictions. That should be a great excuse for any sort of negative activities I engage in.
Josun Tomoro
Aug 12 2008, 11:54 AM
That depends on those things in you set. If your upbringing, Enviroment, genetics, or personality make it hard for you to break habits, then you will have that problem. If there in the middle, youll have a chance of breaking it, but a chance that might not be the end result. And if your very good at breaking habits, then theres nothing to worry about. Part of addictions are that they become habit, and some people cant break habits easily
Unknown
Aug 12 2008, 12:15 PM
Well I don't recall reading that all fast food restaurants or the consumption of ready-prepared food would be banned. It said that they didn't want any knew ones to open. And I think that kind of sounds like a good thing. I think there's a lot more in mind with this bill than trying to force people to conserve their health.
QUOTE
"It's important to offer incentives to bring restaurants into an area, especially an area that has suffered prejudices and stereotypes."
Seems to me that she's also trying to promote friendlier, family social environments, and thats why their endorsing sit in restaurants. I've been to L.A a lot and there are PLENTY of fast food restaurants still available. They aren't going to close them. Too many people would lose their jobs.
Josun Tomoro
Aug 12 2008, 04:46 PM
I will state, i didnt think they were going to be banned, though i should have thought of that, being a semi-socialist.
Meh, ive been feeling off lately anyways.
The Duke of Lolington
Aug 15 2008, 09:19 PM
QUOTE (Rhadamanthus @ Aug 10 2008, 01:49 AM)

I ask that you please cite these claims from reputable sources.
Pick up an Introduction to Psychology textbook. Fate versus Free Will is a basic psychological debate. The text book used for AP Psychology classes in America should be adequate. Your library should carry it; "Psychology: An Introduction (11th Edition)".
Congratulations though, for demanding evidence. Most people attempt to turn the debate from a scientific debate to a political or philosophical debate.
QUOTE (The Evil Dead @ Aug 12 2008, 11:48 AM)

Well, I'm glad to know that I'm already genetically predisposed to indulge in addicting behavior and I have no choice but to give in to said addictions. That should be a great excuse for any sort of negative activities I engage in.

A second congratulations, for completely ignoring the second half of the argument made. Had you chosen to read it, you would have noticed that I always included either environment or upbringing in the statement "you are determined by genetics". Usually, one of those words followed the word and, which was included after the word genetics.
Why is this? Because an argument solely based off Genetics is horrendously weak, because it fails to recognize human beings as psychologically complex entities. Animal's behaviour can be predicted by genetics. Human being's behaviour cannot, because our mind is far more complex (and far more easily understood by our fellow man) than Animals.
Oh, and as an excuse, it's a weak excuse at best. All human beings carry the capacity to fight against their upbringing and genetics. The only variable there is the strength, which can be gained from others. Now that you've read this, and since you have so far proven that you are not unable to learn, the only two excuses remaining are 1) you're lazy, or 2) you don't believe me anyway. Which is fine. After all, you are entitled to your opinion, just so long as you acknowledge that your differing opinion is wrong.
Suishoko
Aug 15 2008, 11:33 PM
Duke, you are the lazy one. If you want to give a complete evidence/ scientific facts, at least type it out. Scientific facts? I dont see it anywhere in your post. Evidence? Yeah, a textbook which is not even available over here. You are lazy and inconsiderate. You didn't even want to read our post where the sentences are coherent when you claim it to be not, proves how lazy you are.
I dont see this as a scientific debate, where is the science? Biology? you mean the "you are determined by genetics"? I thought that was just a mere mention. You didn't elaborate, much less give a example.
QUOTE
Why is this? Because an argument solely based off Genetics is horrendously weak, because it fails to recognize human beings as psychologically complex entities. Animal's behaviour can be predicted by genetics. Human being's behaviour cannot, because our mind is far more complex (and far more easily understood by our fellow man) than Animals
I dont get you. Human being's behaviour cannot be predicted, and you were the one saying that our actions could be predicted. VVVVVVV
QUOTE
Our debate on fast food has now boiled down to the basis difference of opinion that is causing this debate, namely, two schools of thought. The first is the school of thought that I have been pointing too again and again in the thread, the idea that Human choice is but an illusion. This is a school of thought backed by facts, both in the field of genetics, and the field of psychology. I've said this countless times throughout this entire topic. Your personality, body shape, every little thing about you is determined by your Genetics, Environment, and Upbringing. Human beings act in predictable manners, and assuming that enough information could be gathered on a person, you could predict their moves down to when they will stop to pick their nose (note, don't respond to this argument. Yes, I know it's impossible to gather that much information, it's used to make a point. Emphasis).
QUOTE
Nobody ever pays attention to my posts, do they? I've posted again and again that it is often beyond people's control. Genetics and upbringing. That's what determines who you are and what you will become.
QUOTE
All human beings carry the capacity to fight against their upbringing and genetics
Weird that you are the one saying its often out of people's control yet you are also that one saying the humans carry the capacity to fight against their upbringing and genetics. And when humans carry the capacity to fight against their upbringing and genetics, doesn't that mean that we are after all not entirely determined by our upbringing genetics blah blah blah? I dont get you at all, what are you tring to say?
Are you saying that the "human choice is an illusion" is a scientific debate? well explain then, and explain what do you mean by illusion while your at it. And what i mean by explain is really elaborating, listing every detail and not this : " I keep saying this but no one is listening. Human choice is an illusion and its backed by facts"
You keep saying that 'human choice is but an illusion' is backed by facts in the field of genetics and field of psychology, where? i dont see it. If your text book says it all, scan it.
And i dont see why i should colour code my post for you, who are you? At the most, you dont read my post. Heck, you can dont even answer my questions or scan your textbook, at least now I know what you said is nothing but things without evidence.
QUOTE
Which is fine. After all, you are entitled to your opinion, just so long as you acknowledge that your differing opinion is wrong.
so I am not entitled to my own opinion? because I dont think my opinion is wrong.
Is there a right or wrong to opinions? If there is, =D i really want to say this back to duke: Well, duke you are entitled to your opinion too, just so long as you acknowledge that your opinion is wrong.
The Evil Dead
Aug 16 2008, 08:12 AM
I did misread your previous post, so my apologies. People are a product of genetics and their upbringing, but it doesn't mean that for the few that can't break the habit, especially one of just being fat, that the majority should intervene in any way. It's not needed. It's a waste of taxpayer money that such a bill was even brought into existence and considered at any point.
Most people are not beyond help for addiction, and it shouldn't be left for society to intervene. It should be up to the individual, whether they choose to seek some form of help or not. This bill will not make any difference. Preventing new fast food places from opening for a year and offering incentives to other businesses that may offer healthier alternatives will change nothing.
I just think this is a horrible bill to pass... Society should have no right to enforce a law like this, even in a somewhat minimal way such as this. I mean, what's next? There are far more important issues to deal with than nonsense like this.
Also, cut the douchebaggery. It's getting old.
Josun Tomoro
Aug 18 2008, 11:56 AM
The counter to Dukes most recent post would explain why hes moved it to animeyo
Link to new site argumentDont expect him to do it. This almost reminds me of some of the arguments over realsim and socialism he and a few tohers had else where.
Heck, dont even expect him to make another post.